Dear Ben Stein:
I have heard that you have a movie coming out – a documentary, "Expelled – about how creation scientists (a.k.a., intelligent design theorists) are suffering from violations of their free speech rights in academia.
Naturally, I have not seen the documentary yet. Consequently, I am not going to raise any objections against the movie itself. However, I have read reports about its content and if true these reports indicate that the documentary will try to portray the claim that intelligent design is not science as a violation of freedom of speech.
I also suspect that you will hear a lot of objections based on the fact that you failed to properly understand what a scientific theory is, and I have no interest in repeating what they would say.
However, the film (or at least descriptions of it) bring up the issue of freedom of speech, which is a moral issue, and that is the sphere that I write in.
Legacy
I want to begin by pointing that your legacy, as a result of your work on this particular project, will be the suffering and early death of countless people who otherwise could have been saved or benefited from advances in science.
I am going to have to say something about the nature of science to demonstrate this point. Science is involved in explaining and predicting real-world events. This includes real-world events that cause real-world death and suffering. The better we are at understanding the real world, the better we will be at avoiding the death and suffering that nature would otherwise inflict on us.
Science does this by comparing theories. Theory A predicts that under conditions C, that R will result. Theory B predicts that under conditions C, S will result. Scientists then set up or observe conditions C, and see if they detect R or S. If they detect R, they go with theory A. If they detect S, they go with Theory B.
Over time, they continually revise their theories. Theory A1 predicts that under conditions C1, R1 will result. Theory A2 predicts that under conditions C1, R2 will result. (The conditions have to be the same, or there is no way to rule out theories). They then try to detect R1 or R2, and refine their theories accordingly.
It is not the case that everything that scientists like to study has an effect on human death and suffering. However, the methods that they use to study nature in general are the same methods that they apply to those things that result in death and suffering. They are continually involved in refining their theories about things that cause human death and suffering. As a result of their work, we have become extremely good at avoiding human death and suffering – at least in those cultures that are wise enough to put these scientific advances to practical use.
Now, please, try for me to put the concept of intelligent design into the description that I wrote above about how to compare scientific theories. Come up with a condition C, and a result R1 or R2, that will tell us whether or not to accept Theory A or Theory B, where Theory B is intelligent design.
You will fail.
No scientist has yet been able to present a “Theory B” that includes a God variable that produces more accurate results under Conditions C than any comparable theory that lacks a God variable.
Intelligent design tells us nothing that we can use to better understand and cure cancer or Parkinson's disease. There is nothing it can tell us that can lead to the discovery of a way of preventing malaria that would have otherwise gone undiscovered. It will not provide us with food sources that can survive droughts to that people in arid parts of the world can feed themselves. It says nothing at all useful in determining the effects of different chemicals that we are putting in our air, our water, and our food to tell us whether they are poisonous or beneficial. It tells us none of the things that science tells us - things that protects our lives, health, and well-being.
So, what these people want to do instead of providing us with the fruits of their research is to force scientist to use another criterion – other than the criterion of coming up with a theory that better predicts results under given conditions. That criterion is the criterion of force - perhaps not the force of a gun to the head, but the force of legislation and social sanctions.
I want to repeat this in case a reader might skip the point of this post. Intelligent design has no 'condition C' with an R1 and an R2 where evolution produces one prediction, intelligent design produces another, and observation confirms intelligent design. If it did, it could count as science. In the absence of scientific evidence favoring intelligent design, its proponents want to introduce something other than evidence into the scientific process - political bullying. Under this system, a theory is viable to the degree that its proponents can use lies and distortions to manipulate the public into including it in the scientific discussion. That's what the movie 'Expelled' is - an propaganda instrument for the sake of rallying people into bullying science educators into including an idea that has absolutely no merit as science.
What is going to make a scientific theory “worth considering” on this standard is not whether its defenders can provide experimental evidence, but whether its defenders can get the government and the mob to threaten scientists who reject their views.
On this system, force replaces truth as a standard of truth.
Causing Harm
Part of the problem with introducing force as a standard of truth is that you will end up promoting systems that will do more harm than good. Intelligent design itself finds its home in a context that does a particularly poor job of predicting and explaining the causes of human death and suffering, and of helping people avoid death and suffering.
A scientist says that hurricanes are too large for us to be able to control where they go. However, by taking measurements of air speed, ocean temperature, pressure, the principles of evaporation and condensation of water, and the like, we can make increasingly accurate predictions of where hurricanes will strike and how best to avoid the worst consequences. The consequences suffered in New Orleans show the price to be paid by those who ignore science.
Theocrats want to argue that we can control the severity – even the existence of hurricanes by passing laws against homosexuality, putting prayer in school, and closing down abortion clinics. They have got the fanatical belief that these variables somehow influence the nature of hurricanes.
Now, we can test these types of claims. We can come up with theories that determine relationships between the frequency and course of hurricanes based on number of abortion clinics, presence of laws against homosexual acts, and the numbers of state-sponsored school prayers. Yet, in 400 years of science, these types of relationships do not hold up. The people who advocate these types of solutions will add to the total amount of human suffering (the suffering imposed on people as a result of these laws) without doing any good whatsoever.
We see from this that the type of thinking that surrounds intelligent design will cause death and suffering in two ways. First, there is the death and suffering surrounding the laws that those who think this way would impose on others – the diseases not prevented, the poverty promoted, the prohibitions that deny people the opportunity to realize important values in the brief lives they have.
Second, this way of thinking will result in more death and suffering than there would otherwise be because it will take attention from reason-based policies that show a scientifically provable effect of reducing death and suffering. People devoted to preventing harms from natural disasters through community prayers and repressive social laws are not devoting their energy to scientific research and understanding. People who are demanding that science yield to a ‘political force as proof of scientific validity’ way of thinking are not allowing scientists to discover those methods that truly do the best job of predicting and explaining real-world events.
Both of these pathways lead to death and suffering, and both pathways will be opened up by the false and irresponsible claims that, at least judging from the press reports, will sit at the heart of your documentary.
Fear Mongering
A standard political move these days would be to take an argument like the one that I gave above and use it to accuse the person who made it of ‘fear mongering’ – of trying to manipulate people through fear. President Bush suggests that staying in Iraq will harm our national interests, and he is immediately condemned for fear-mongering by those who do not want the public to even consider (and debate) the possibility.
So, let us take a look at fear mongering, and see whether the term would apply in this case.
Imagine a room with a table in the center, and a pitcher in the middle of the room that you know contains poison. A woman enters the room and fills a glass from the pitcher. If I were to warn her that the pitcher contains poison, it would not be wrong to think that I was attempting to manipulate her behavior – attempting to warn her against drinking from the pitcher. However, it would be wrong to accuse me of fear mongering.
In order to be guilty of fear mongering, it would have to be the case that I did not believe that the pitcher contained poison or that I adopted the belief irresponsibly based more on convenience than on evidence. Furthermore, I would need some motive to prevent the woman from drinking the liquid – a motive that the woman would probably not find persuasive. So, I make false or irresponsible claims about the harmfulness of the liquid in order to prevent her from doing something I have other reasons to prevent her from doing. This would be a case of fear-mongering.
The arguments that I gave above deflect any charges of fear mongering. Science is, as a matter of fact, involved in a practice of comparing theories by determining what the theory says will happen under conditions C, making observations about those happenings, and determining which theory most accurately predicted the results. This method is particularly important when the results provide information useful in avoiding human death and suffering. The type of thinking that surrounds and permeates intelligent design is a type of thinking that rejects this method. So, the type of thinking that permeates intelligent design is a type that will interfere with our abilities to prevent death and suffering.
That particular drink is poison, and a morally responsible person would warn others not to drink it.
Freedom of Speech
As a matter of fact, people who advocate intelligent design pretty much prove that they are incompetent in matters of science, in the same way that an engineer who advocates making a bridge out of common clay proves that he is an incompetent engineer.
The fact that the common clay bridge builder is able to rally his friends to beat up on (legislatively or socially) the steel-bridge builders if they do not give their friend an engineering license is no proof that the friend’s engineering is sound. People can be forced to deny reality, but reality does not yield to individual stupidity. Give the common-clay bridge builder a license, and a lot of people are going to start suffering death and injuries in the collapsing bridges that result.
His ‘opinion’ that clay bridges are as sound as steel bridges is not enough to prevent clay bridges from collapsing.
However, let us assume that this engineer does not want to build clay bridges. He wants to teach at an engineering college where he will inform countless students that clay bridges are structurally sound. And when the engineering department denies him a position, he goes to court, claiming that they are violating his rights to free speech. Clearly, he has a right to stand before a bunch of students and tell them that common clay bridges are structurally sound.
By your standards, such a teacher must be permitted to teach that common clay is as good as steel, because refusing to do so would be a morally impermissible violation of that individual's right to freedom of speech. In fact, if we were to make your principle a universal law, as the moral philosopher Immanual Kant contends, any attempt to regulate the quality of teaching is a violation of free speech. No individual shall be denied a position in a university based on the quality of his research - but all individuals shall be permitted to teach whatever they want to whomever they want.
As I said, the policies and principles that appear in your documentary, at least as reported in the press, are clearly policies and principles that will lead to death and suffering.
Conclusion
I have no illusions that this letter will change the course of events. The documentary will play. People who would have otherwise studied and applied the principles of science to discover or at least understand how certain policies can reduce death and suffering, will instead pursue policies that promote death and suffering. The institution that best seeks to explain and predict the forces of nature that kill and maim individuals will be weakened, and death and suffering that could have been prevented, will not be prevented.
Of course, you will deny any responsibility for this. Unfortunately, reality does not care about what we believe. A person's unwillingness to accept reality does not change reality; a person's unwillingness to accept responsiblity for the harm he has done to others does not prevent them from being harmed.
These effects are real. You have made the world a worse place than it would have otherwise been, and some will pay with their lives. Hopefully, they (or those who survive them) will at least have the wisdom to know who is responsible for their situation.
Note: The National Center for Science Education also exposes a number of inaccuracies in its site, Expelled Exposed.
301 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 301 Newer› Newest»Wow! What an amazingly controlled, reasoned argument.
I can't imagine I'd be able to remain that rational when writing a letter to such a clearly irrational person!
Nicely written.
He knows all of that. All of them do.
These people - who obviously know better - are just conflicted, sentimental over their mommy and daddy's heartfelt beliefs.
Thanks for being so patient, though.
From what I can glean from the trailer and other information on the website is that this documentary is trying to expose the obvious bias that proponents of Darwinian Evolution(DE) have against anyone who would try and suggest an alternate theory. It is disturbing to me to read the accounts of the scientists who have been discredited, denied tenure, or fired because they expressed a belief that ID was worth looking into. If the theory of Evolution is on such a firm and sure footing, instead of ruining the lives and careers of those who would question DE, why not invite people to try and knock it down and let them ruin their own lives and careers when they cannot?
In your Blog Entry Insulting Religious People you write that some Christians have the following attitude about those who question the Truth:
Those who question these truths are bad people. The deserve to be punished, as we will punish you, if you question these myths.
This statement is reflective of the attitude of today's academic leaders towards those people who are questioning the truth of Darwinian Evolution. To echo "our hidden place", these people - who obviously know better - are just conflicted. If there is an objective standard of truth, then there must be One who laid out that standard. And if that One exists, then those who do not follow His standard are going to be held accountable for their actions. The conflict comes when they realize that believing that One exists interferes with the selfish desire to live life without accountability.
Thanks for caricaturing christians as unthinking-stupid-bafoons! If that's all your atheistic ethicisim can do and desire to achieve...kudos to you! But the fact that numerous Christians have graduated from IVY league universities all around the world (escapes your notice) could only mean that these secular schools of Darwinistic higher-education are really (embarassing!) run by the same kinda of evolved human beings.
anonymous
I believe that you errantly attached a comment to my post that was meant for someone else, because it does not apply to anything that I had written.
Indeed, I have specifically refuted the claim that you accuse me of. I have repeatedly written in condemnation of the inference from "Some Christians have absurdly foolish beliefs" to "All Christians are fools."
However, it is still the case that "Some Christians have absurdly foolish beliefs" is consistent with "Some Christians are fools."
anonymous
I have to ask if you read the post that you attached this comment to.
Intelligent Design has not yet produced a Theory A (containing a god variable) that predicts a Result R under Conditions C, that is more accurate than a Theory B (containing no god variable).
Thus:
There is nothing for scientists to discuss.
There is simply no sense in accusing scientists of trying to suppress something that nobody has yet offered up for them to suppress.
Calling intelligent design 'science' is sufficient to demonstrate that intelligent design theorists do not understand what science is, in the same way that calling palm tree a horse is sufficient to show that the speaker does not understand biology.
Fascinating piece.
So now it is using "force" when you provide evidence of the injustices done to scientists who don't toe the line WRT the popular theories? Have you even looked at the scientific credentials and track record of the folks who are being persecuted by evangelical materialists in the name of science?
Rae
The scientific method is one that "credentials and track record" are not valid criteria to use in evaluating scientific research.
In fact, scientific journals generally require that the author's track record and cridentials be removed from all submissions.
This is done so that the submission will be judged on its own merits - whether the arguments in the paper are actually sound, and not on the author's track record and credentials.
The "force" that I am talking about includes forcing science (through social pressure or law) to base its decisions on things like author's track record or credentials which science presently considers irrelevant.
Ben Stein‘s movie the end of the world! The sky is falling the sky is falling!
"clearly policies and principles that will lead to death and suffering." WOW! Talk about over the top.
How in the world will looking at any scientific evidence or even presenting a creationism hypothesis have any such effect? Ben Stein’s docudrama isn’t going to bring science to and end and certainly a creationism hypothesis won’t be the end of the world as you appear to propose. Bring on the debate! That can only be a good thing.
No offence man but I think you are a tad paranoid. Take care.
Anonymous
You seem to lack the integrity and honesty to respond to what I actually wrote. You replace my actual argument with hyperbole, and respond to the hyperbole as if it is what I actually wrote.
Please recognize that this qualifies as 'bearing false witness', because you clearly bore false witness about my actual arguments. That domonstrates that you have a rather imperfect understanding of how a moral person would behave.
Does a good person lie about what other people say and then respond to the lie?
This is a great letter, well argued and brilliantly written. Unfortunately, those who care about proper science and respect for truth (such as myself and other atheists) know that the intended recipient won't read it, and even if he does it will make no difference.
I'm sure the movie will be a big success (especially in America) and will give the creationist fundies something to get on their high horse about. I'm sure the politicians will get on the bandwagon and suggest that more "free speech" time be given to Intelligent Design.
It makes you weep for the species really. All we can do is hope that eventually we get rid of this teleological supernatural mythical metaphysical cancer of creationism and the human race can look back in a few hundred years' time and laugh. What a shame about the great price we pay until that day.
President Bush suggests that staying in Iraq will harm our national interests, and he is immediately condemned for fear-mongering by those who do not want the public to even consider (and debate) the possibility.
Umm... did you mean to name someone else?
Anonymous said:
"...numerous Christians have graduated from IVY league universities all around the world..."
From Wikipedia:
"The Ivy League is an athletic conference comprising eight private institutions of higher education located in the Northeastern United States. The term is now most commonly used to refer to those eight schools considered as a group"
Mobile campuses? Ivy League distance learning? Perhaps religious miracles?
Sorry, it was just such a ridiculous statement.
The post could use a slight tweak:
They then try to detect R1 or R1, and refine their theories accordingly.
The second R1 should be R2.
Regardless of some nit-picking of the mechanics and details of the letter, it is a very well done letter. You can always tell the good ones by the ferocity of the responses, and how many times pronouns such as Him and He are capitalized. Its the classic veiled threat of eternal damnation by dropping sky-god references (Those poor billions of non-Christians! To hell for your ignorance!).
Sorry, I posted here to compliment. Keep fighting the good fight, sir.
Hmm. You clearly have a fairly solid grasp of communicating your ideas in a reasonably bias free way. You do include one thing that may be a difficult sell, however. Even assuming that everyone sees this movie, and that it drives the global community to abandon Darwinian theories of evolution, I do not see a significant raise in the amount of human suffering in the world. There are some religions that speak against science in "useful" applications (such as medicine), but they do not often flourish. Much as the Shakers faltered because of their prohibition against sexual relations for any reason, those religions do not often last over time. Religions with a more rational structure (such as the viewpoint of the Jewish faith that things like stem cell research are in fact a gift from God) survive despite their convictions imposing prohibitions on scientific research. There is also a good argument that the majority of scientific research over the course of human history has been performed by religious individuals.
These things being said, the impact on human suffering is not something that can be measured empirically in these kinds of terms. To use your own analogy, theory T1 may be that under conditions C, the suffering (R) of humans goes up. Under theory 2 (T2) using conditions C1, R goes down. Attempting to apply such rationale to the entire population is immensely complex, possibly even to the point of being completely beyond our ability to measure. Suffering is also highly subjective; tribal members in the Amazon may find your house incredibly stifling while you may be unhappy in the communal shelter.
In a statistical sense, human suffering if measured has the problem of being a potential infinite; any increase or decrease may be considered temporary and also statistically insignificant. This of course assumes that humanity continues infinitely. If the entire race is exterminated, by outside forces or by the usual suspects (nuclear war, biological weapons, etc), then the amount of human suffering may be increased. At that point, there is no one left to care about that particular metric, unfortunately.
Human suffering is a highly individual thing, and while ID may cause societal problems if it were to run away and cause the end of logical thought, I cannot see it as a significant variable in human suffering. "Evil" can be caused as easily by cold logic of science or hot passion of piety; I believe that moderation of speech or research no matter how well intentioned will usually end poorly for all involved. Science is built upon the blocks of all that comes before it, and truth cannot forever be obscured. (Even if you buy the patent and bury it.)
"Darwinism is Unscientific, Mythical, and inherently racist. It is being officially rejected by the modern science community and the mass public."
Darwinism and Atheism: Unscientific and Mythical
Creationists,
Next time you, or a loved one suffers a heart attack, don't call 911. Have faith, pray. Why get those dirty doctors involved with their dirty science, and proven methods of saving lives based on sound principles and research? Why accept treatment based on evidence and results? Clearly, you should give equal time to the faith-healer, and witchdoctor. Who are we to deny your rights?
Too many commas. Sorry.
I can't wait until Ben Stein takes on 'Big Math' with their subtraction and "theory" of multiplication. I can't wait to see the look on the non-believers faces when they meet their Maker and find out that 2 + 2 = 5! How can't you know that!?! I mean 2 is a number. There's a 2 in 5, therefore, God exists! If only you would believe!
Let me preface my comment by saying that most of the people closest to me believe in God. I love and respect these people, even without being commanded to do so by an unseen almighty power. Most of them know I am an atheist. However, I am in no way comfortable discussing my views with most of those I count as family and friends. Ben Stein seems like a likable guy, but to my mind he pursues projects like a large corporation would - with a profit motivation in mind, that doesn't necessarily have to be in line with the public interest. An overwhelming majority in the U.S. believe in the supernatural in some form or another, and so is the case worldwide. It appears he is attempting appeal to the broadest audience possible in line with those ends. It looks like he'll be using what seems to be the favorite tricks of neo-cons these days. Take a subject, any subject, and flip it right around. I'm not stupid. You're stupid. I'm not oppressing and threatening you with irrational, unproven beliefs. You're oppressing and threatening me with irrational, unproven beliefs. You are the villain, and I am the hero who will save the people, because I speak with authority/anger (a.k.a. don't look at the evidence and facts. Just be fearful, and take my word for it, and the word of those like me). I fight for the underdog (a.k.a. the elite who take advantage of the fearful/ignorant/uneducated/poor). Ben displays flawed logic (a.k.a. Karl Marx was jealous of his rich relatives, therefore, his ideas are wrong). [ I guess I could say things like God said some stuff a long time ago, because he was really upset with humanity so what he said was wrong and biased. - Mathematics is pretty old. It was brilliant for its time, but this is the 21st century. - I can't come up with a formula for love yet, so how can math be useful to understanding anything? - Technological and scientific advances are often made during times of war, therefore, war is good. - We are your leaders and your superiors. I tell you I represent your values, so take my word for it when I tell you war and the resulting deaths of your loved ones are well worth any cause we tell you is worthy. ] Scientific attitudes absolutely depend and are changed by evidence. By necessity they must be open to change as evidence becomes available. Assertions in science are subject to scrutiny by peer review, and practical testing in the real world. Can the same be said of intelligent design, religion, or political dogma? If you are religious in the U.S., chances are you believe there is an ultimate reward or ultimate punishment after death waiting for you, neither of which can be proven, but which nonetheless keeps you in check with fear, or with irrational joy over propositions for which there is no evidence whatsoever. You are willing to revolve your life around these beliefs and treat others according to their dictates. Would you want the equivalent of intelligent design or this type of belief system taught to the medical student that will care for your sick child, or the mechanic who will fix the brakes on your car? No doubt different ideas and opinions can be a good thing, and there is still a lot to learn. This doesn't qualify intelligent design to be taught as scientifically valid, or its believers to presume authority in any realm. Religious beliefs are not universally agreed upon. They cannot be tested, because they simply demand obedience. They have been the cause of violence, terror, and oppression throughout recorded history. The variety of views and opinions, even within the same religion, are varied and numerous, and are often the cause of prejudice and conflict. Can they all be right? On the other hand, evolution is even apparent in those things that are designed, like the automobile. A model year car from 1930 is not the same as a model year car from 2008. Incremental changes are made toward a goal (one that will survive, and be reproduced). Some things survive (the steering wheel), some things don't (the crank shaft). On a biological level these changes happen through mutation and reproduction. No creator required. Then there is the question that if there is a creator where did the creator come from, and how. If the assertion of this movie is that intelligent design should be taught alongside with scientific reality, then will you, the believer, allow equal time for atheism, evolution, scientific inquiry, and even opposing religious views to be taught in your churches, synagogues, and mosques, at home, at work, in public? Will you endorse the teaching of prayer or casting of spells in our medical schools as an alternative to medicine, because every disease cannot be cured yet? Do you perceive an impact on your health and society if they are?
Let me preface my comment by saying that most of the people closest to me believe in God. I love and respect these people, even without being commanded to do so by an unseen almighty power. Most of them know I am an atheist. However, I am in no way comfortable discussing my views with most of those I count as family and friends. Ben Stein seems like a likable guy, but to my mind he pursues projects like a large corporation would - with a profit motivation in mind, that doesn't necessarily have to be in line with the public interest. An overwhelming majority in the U.S. believe in the supernatural in some form or another, and so is the case worldwide. It appears he is attempting appeal to the broadest audience possible in line with those ends. It looks like he'll be using what seems to be the favorite tricks of neo-cons these days. Take a subject, any subject, and flip it right around. I'm not stupid. You're stupid. I'm not oppressing and threatening you with irrational, unproven beliefs. You're oppressing and threatening me with irrational, unproven beliefs. You are the villain, and I am the hero who will save the people, because I speak with authority/anger (a.k.a. don't look at the evidence and facts. Just be fearful, and take my word for it, and the word of those like me). I fight for the underdog (a.k.a. the elite who take advantage of the fearful/ignorant/uneducated/poor). Ben displays flawed logic (a.k.a. Karl Marx was jealous of his rich relatives, therefore, his ideas are wrong). [ I guess I could say things like God said some stuff a long time ago, because he was really upset with humanity so what he said was wrong and biased. - Mathematics is pretty old. It was brilliant for its time, but this is the 21st century. - I can't come up with a formula for love yet, so how can math be useful to understanding anything? - Technological and scientific advances are often made during times of war, therefore, war is good. - We are your leaders and your superiors. I tell you I represent your values, so take my word for it when I tell you war and the resulting deaths of your loved ones are well worth any cause we tell you is worthy. ] Scientific attitudes absolutely depend and are changed by evidence. By necessity they must be open to change as evidence becomes available. Assertions in science are subject to scrutiny by peer review, and practical testing in the real world. Can the same be said of intelligent design, religion, or political dogma? If you are religious in the U.S., chances are you believe there is an ultimate reward or ultimate punishment after death waiting for you, neither of which can be proven, but which nonetheless keeps you in check with fear, or with irrational joy over propositions for which there is no evidence whatsoever. You are willing to revolve your life around these beliefs and treat others according to their dictates. Would you want the equivalent of intelligent design or this type of belief system taught to the medical student that will care for your sick child, or the mechanic who will fix the brakes on your car? No doubt different ideas and opinions can be a good thing, and there is still a lot to learn. This doesn't qualify intelligent design to be taught as scientifically valid, or its believers to presume authority in any realm. Religious beliefs are not universally agreed upon. They cannot be tested, because they simply demand obedience. They have been the cause of violence, terror, and oppression throughout recorded history. The variety of views and opinions, even within the same religion, are varied and numerous, and are often the cause of prejudice and conflict. Can they all be right? On the other hand, evolution is even apparent in those things that are designed, like the automobile. A model year car from 1930 is not the same as a model year car from 2008. Incremental changes are made toward a goal (one that will survive, and be reproduced). Some things survive (the steering wheel), some things don't (the crank shaft). On a biological level these changes happen through mutation and reproduction. No creator required. Then there is the question that if there is a creator where did the creator come from, and how. If the assertion of this movie is that intelligent design should be taught alongside with scientific reality, then will you, the believer, allow equal time for atheism, evolution, scientific inquiry, and even opposing religious views to be taught in your churches, synagogues, and mosques, at home, at work, in public? Will you endorse the teaching of prayer or casting of spells in our medical schools as an alternative to medicine, because every disease cannot be cured yet? Do you perceive an impact on your health and society if they are?
Creationism and intelligent design are not trying to change the way science is done or trying to take over the whole of science. The creation and ID movements are challenging the origin of the universe, origin of life and to the extent that organisms evolve. All of these aspects are historical sciences and rely on evidence in the present to create a theory about the past. The validity of the theories are not and can not be based on real world testing. All the evidence is the same, evolutionists take the evidence and fit it into what they believe happened which is based on the assumption that processes of today have continued at the same rate throughout all of history. While creationists take the word of God and fits the evidence with what the bible says. And just like evolutionists they use science to back up their arguments. They come to different conclusions because they have different presuppositions. Evolutionists believe that the processes of today are the same as they were in the past but they can't prove it because they weren't there and Creationists believe the bible to be true but they can't prove it cause they weren't there. So it all comes down to who is starting from the correct point of view. For an analogy say you and a friend walk into a bathroom and the tub is filled with 4 gallons of water and it is still filling up at 1/2 gallon per hour. You decide to do an experiment and figure that at 1/2 gallon per hour it must have taken 2 hours to fill the tub. But just then your friend finds a note that said the tub was filled up an hour ago. Now the note could be a lie but if it is true than your conclusion is completely wrong because at one point in the past the water was flowing at a much higher rate and so you and your friend get in an argument about if your right or not, he can't prove you wrong because your math and experiment were done properly and you refuse to believe the note and there is no way to go in the past to find out who is right. He could even show you how it is possible to get the water to flow faster and come with some theories of what caused the faster flow but it doesn't matter because he is basing his experiment on that note. Of course he is right and you are wrong but neither is able to provide 100% proof so you both go on believing what you want. This is the exact argument between creation and evolution. It's important that people understand that evolution is not fact (natural selection is a fact which is the part of evolution that is used to do many other important research) but the origins of the universe, it's age, and the origins of life are all theories that can not be backed up by repeated testing. That is what creation is challenging and it does use scientific knowledge to back up it's theory. Creationists don't just say God did it and that's the end of the story. They use scientific data and observations to either challenge the possibility of evolution or make claims to the age of the earth.
Anonymous
Much of your discussion actually does not talk about evolution at all, but about other things.
Evolution is concerned with changes in biological systems over time through inheritance and natural selection. Questions about the origin of the universe (cosmology) or even the origin of life (biogenesis) are not a part of evolutionary theory. They are different subjects.
As for your tub analogy, anybody who assumes that the note is true or false is making a mistake. The proper attitude - the scientific attitude to take towards the note is that we do not know if it is true or false.
[Note: At 1/2 gallon per hour it would have taken 8 hours to put 4 gallons of water in the tub.]
The scientist would look for some evidence of how full the tub was at a previous time. For example, the scientist finds some mineral half way up the side of the tub. By testing the mineral they determine that the mineral had been under water for 4 hours. Another mineral, 3/4 of the way up the tub, shows that it had been submerged for 2 hours. This, then, supports the hypothesis that the statement on the note was false.
Until there is evidence, the scientist would not doubt the contents of the note. Nor would he believe the note. It is well within the realm of possibility that flow-rates change over time, and that other events will alter the level of water in the tub. The scientist who assumes that the flow rate must be the same over time is no scientist.
At best, a scientist would say, "If the flow rate is constant over time, then we can expect to discover the following." However, he suspends judgment until he finds the things that the theory predicts. If he finds what the theory predicts, this supports the theory. If not, then he changes the theory to fit what he does find. If he cannot confirm or falsify the theory, then he remains agnostic - waiting for evidence that will decide the issue one way or the other.
We have tons of evidence - from radioactive decay, from the disposition of craters, from, from the speed of light and redshift, from the fossil record, all of which point to a common conclusion. With all of this evidence converging on the theory that the metaphorical tub filled at a constant rate, the person who insists that the note was accurate is simply being stubborn. At the very least we can say that insisting that the note must be true has nothing to do with 'doing science'.
Even without this evidence supporting the 'note is a lie' option, there is still no justification for holding that the message on the note is true. Worse is the person who says that "those who believe the contents of the note are morally superior to those who do not - that to even question the note is a sin, and those who do so shall be condemned to eternal damnation. We owe all of the misery and suffering of human history to those who deny that the contents of the note are literally true."
That's just nonsense.
A well reasoned and articulated response to Anonymous (@2:50 PM).
I would add that the analogy fails when it is stated:
"He could even show you how it is possible to get the water to flow faster and come with some theories of what caused the faster flow but it doesn't matter because he is basing his experiment on that note."
The analogy fails since Creationist have yet to "show... how it is possible" for their hypotheses to work. If there were any demonstrable hypothesis for Creationism, then we wouldn't be having theses discussions, since that could be part of a valid scientific argument and scientists would be running experiments instead of wasting time explaining what science is and is not.
("We have tons of evidence - from radioactive decay, from the disposition of craters, from, from the speed of light and redshift, from the fossil record, all of which point to a common conclusion. With all of this evidence converging on the theory that the metaphorical tub filled at a constant rate, the person who insists that the note was accurate is simply being stubborn. At the very least we can say that insisting that the note must be true has nothing to do with 'doing science'.
Even without this evidence supporting the 'note is a lie' option, there is still no justification for holding that the message on the note is true. Worse is the person who says that "those who believe the contents of the note are morally superior to those who do not - that to even question the note is a sin, and those who do so shall be condemned to eternal damnation. We owe all of the misery and suffering of human history to those who deny that the contents of the note are literally true.")
First of all the fact that you dimiss most of the things I talked about as evolution means that you shouldn't have a problem with creation because that's what they are challenging. As for your evidence- radioactive decay is one of the items that are based on assumptions that chemicals have always decayed at the same rate and that the beginning amount of daughter and parent chemicals are known and other assumptions. That is what the analogy is saying. The fossil record means nothing. Fossils are created by an organism being deposited quickly in mud and water, which creationists explain with the flood. As for starlight, creationists have proposed a theory that talks about gravity and how it's related to time. And my point isn't that the note should be held as true but can be used as evidence. If you can harmonize the note with what you know scientifically, then it is much more likely that you will be right. That is the point. If the bible is true then the flood had a drastic effect on the earth and it's current conditions and so it would be impossible to get accurate reflections of earth's history using present day knowledge of chemical and geologic processes. Creationists admit that they have to have an amount of faith, but their point is so don't the evolutionists who have to have faith that all their assumptions about the past are true.
To point out something with what the next person said. Creationists show how the flood accounts for fossils, plate tectonics and how it changed the landscape of the earth. They use science to show that the earth is young. Both sides have the same evidence and they use science to justify their theory of earth's history and both take an amount of faith. That's why they should be competing theories. Creationists are not trying to get evolution takin out of school they just want to be able to show the problems with evolution and how they feel they explain the evidence better. Evolution on the other hand doesn't even want people to be able to critique their theory, and that is a big problem.
Anonymous
"Creationists show how the flood accounts for fossils, plate tectonics and how it changed the landscape of the earth."
I must have missed that issue of Science, could you point me to scientifically accepted papers on the above topics?
"I must have missed that issue of Science, could you point me to scientifically accepted papers on the above topics?"
You know you would have to research creationists websites to find the information that I am talking about and you are more than likely not going to do that. I don't know or care if the papers have been reviewed by scientists who believe in evolution, because they are not without bias. It's evident in how badly they don't want creation taught or how much they don't want people to speak against evolution. Creationist don't mind having the two taught alongside each other but evolution does. That speaks volumes to how truthful evolution is. Go ahead and believe what you want, but the main points I have are that evolution is not fact, it takes a level of faith to believe in it and Creation is not against science and would not be the end of science like this article tried to make it sound. Creation is about the history of the universe (which can not be explored through repeated testing and observation) and does not delve into operational science that helps make the world a better place, although many scientists that believe in creation do that kind of work.
http://www.trueorigin.org/creatheory.asp
here is a link about the theory of creation compared to evolution. Read the whole thing for yourself and decide what you want. This explains some of what I was trying to get across.
Anonymous,
I did read the article in your link and found it very enlightening. It did expand my understanding of the Creationist viewpoint. And, as I'm sure you are expecting, I did not find it at all persuasive.
I was, however, pleasantly surprised to see that the biases in Creationism are stated very plainly; a main one being, "The biblical record is accepted as a reliable historical basis of interpreting empirical data." This is backed up by the previously stated "a priori assumption" which says, "As with all man’s endeavors, true science will inevitably honor the Creator and affirm the Bible as His true and accurate record, wherever it addresses the historical past."
This, of course, is root of all error with Creationism as there is no deductive or empirical evidence that support these statements. Yes, there are events described in the bible that might have happened, but the claim is that "the biblical record is accepted as a reliable historical basis," not that parts may be somewhat accurate, but that the entire text must be accepted. Anything based on such an assumption is suspect.
At this point, I must point out that the offered A Priori Assumption listed for the evolution, which is a Theory, not a Hypothesis, is, if I'm not mistaken, completely fabricated. I have never seen anything that states that science is predicated on the assumption that "Man’s scientific endeavors will inevitably affirm man’s autonomy and independence in determining what is true and what is false." Please correct me, if I am wrong, from a reputable source, please.
This article also spends a lot of effort supposedly correcting the evolutionist's "arbitrarily modified definition" of science, in order to better claim inclusion within that definition. Which brings me to a question I would like to ask of you.
Why does Creationism need to be a science? Scientists have spent generations developing the methods, practices, and definitions for what they do. They developed it, let it be theirs. Creationists are free to seek their own knowledge on their own terms. No one is stopping them.
I think answering that question may lead you to the root cause of more issues than just Creation versus Evolution.
Wow, this sparked a lot of debate! The last bit doesn't really fit with the post... I'd interject and suggest anonymous read this helpful link:
http://evolution.mbdojo.com/flood.html
Also bear in mind some important details: There are hundreds of thousands of Christian evolutionists. Evolution is a "fact" in the same sense as gravity is a "fact." The scientific method does not require scientists to be able to recreate events to repeatedly measure and observe the world.
Basically... until you have at least a high school level education in the philosophy of science, there's not much that can dissuade you from skilled Creationists' rhetoric. When you think about bias, though, remember that there are tons of Christian evolutionists and believers in an old earth. There are NO atheist Creationists.
In what is fast becoming the norm on the internet, you have a rant full of strawmen, predicting all kinds of doom and gloom when in reality, you have nothing to back it up.
I'm not saying your right or wrong; but shouldn't a true scientist be willing to explore all possibilities? Maybe there is a higher being, a God, or something else, or maybe there's nothing but a black void.
I don't have the answer to that question, and frankly, you don't either. I do know this, we'll
(continued from the last post, accidentally left it off from my copy and paste. )find out when we die.
"Why does Creationism need to be a science? Scientists have spent generations developing the methods, practices, and definitions for what they do. They developed it, let it be theirs. Creationists are free to seek their own knowledge on their own terms. No one is stopping them.
I think answering that question may lead you to the root cause of more issues than just Creation versus Evolution."
Basically it comes down to creationists do not want their children taught that evolution (in the respect to history of the universe) as deniable fact so that it undermines their belief just like atheist don't want their children taught creation as fact. So problem becomes what do you teach. Natural selection and adaptation should be taught as fact but the origin of the universe and origin of life should be taught as to what they truly are and that is ideas about how it all began, they are nothing more than that at this stage. Also how life evolved from one celled organism to humans is just speculation without any hard evidence and should be taught as such. Basically it doesn't matter if creation is taught or not but evolution should be taught truthfully. And people should not be fired because they don't believe in it. That is my stand.
As for the remark that follows this one, don't just call creationists liars, show me where they are lying and give arguments to back that up. Otherwise you have no credability at all.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/geology.asp
here is a link about creationists views on geology. In response to the one who had a link that was against the flood.
"Basically it comes down to creationists do not want their children taught ... evolution ... as [un]deniable fact so that it undermines their belief" [I think you meant undeniable there.]
Anonymous,
So what you are saying is that the science doesn't really matter. You just want your own beliefs presented.
I really just don't understand how people, who are so adamant that 'God' created the universe, so actively and willfully ignore the very thing that 'He' created. Study the work more and the word less and maybe you will gain a little actual knowledge.
"So what you are saying is that the science doesn't really matter. You just want your own beliefs presented.
I really just don't understand how people, who are so adamant that 'God' created the universe, so actively and willfully ignore the very thing that 'He' created. Study the work more and the word less and maybe you will gain a little actual knowledge."
If you read what I said i didn't advocate the teaching of creation in schools. I have no prolems with evolution being taught but it's shortcomings should also be taught. Creationist have just as much science on their side, they are not going against science they use it to prove their ideas as well. And at least they admit that everything they believe is not fact and they are just fitting their scientific knowledge with what the bible says. Here is a link that goes along with what I am saying http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-starlight-prove. It's about distant starlight which creationists admit is the best argument against creationism. However they give some theories or ideas that explain the problem but they don't pretend that what they are saying is fact. Evolution on the other want people to believe that their are no problems with their theory. Read the article, they do use science in their arguments.
Answers in Genesis is an extremely bigoted site filled with unethical rhetoric, so forgive me for not reading your links in any detail, Anonymous.
The neat thing about the scientific method is that it allows people to approach phenomena and investigate hypotheses to explain them. What (most) Creationists do is approach phenomena with the mindset of "how can we explain this under the assumption that a creator God exists?"
Then, they look into the published works of real scientists and quote-mine.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/
quotes/mine/project.html
Anyway, the theory of evolution does not have any "shortcomings" significant enough to merit mention. If kids move on to higher education, they can find out the areas in the theory that require more study and analysis.
Anonymous,
My point is that by claiming such things as,"Creationist have just as much science on their side, they are not going against science they use it to prove their ideas as well," you are attempting to portray your own views which are not in line with accepted science or the scientific process. Because Creationist do not "have just as much science on their side." If you want to change the science that is taught in school, there are ways to do that. Show the scientific community that you have a valid scientific theory with strong evidence to back it up. Admittedly, creationists have an uphill battle due to 150 years of research on Evolution, but claiming equal status based on incomplete hypotheses with virtually no objective data to back it up, is not the way to do it. I'm sure that you've heard all this before and my repetition will not change your mind.
As for the article you mentioned, I did in fact read the thing and pretty much have to agree with G-man on the rhetoric in this one. If you are presenting this as an example of the "use" of science in creationism, you may want to revisit a high school science book. Practically the entire article was variations on 'here's a thought that we are not claiming to be true but we have people researching it.' There was no evidence or proof of anything what so ever supporting Creation. The only section that even made a claim of evidence was the very last paragraph that states, "we should also remember the body of evidence that is consistent with the youth of the universe." As if by saying this is a "body of evidence," that makes it true.
And, of course there are the completely misleading and disingenuous statements such as, "We see multitudes of hot blue stars, which even secular astronomers would agree cannot last billions of years." Which is technically true, from what I understand, however the tiny little detail that they don't mention is that stars are still being generated and at huge distances! So yes we see hot blue stars because they are young stars that were generated relatively recently and/or very far away, not because the universe is only a few thousand years old.
This is a blatant attempt at deception!
I don't like being this harsh, but this is a waste of my time and yours, unless you are willing to engage in rational discussion.
(And, of course there are the completely misleading and disingenuous statements such as, "We see multitudes of hot blue stars, which even secular astronomers would agree cannot last billions of years." Which is technically true, from what I understand, however the tiny little detail that they don't mention is that stars are still being generated and at huge distances! So yes we see hot blue stars because they are young stars that were generated relatively recently and/or very far away, not because the universe is only a few thousand years old.
This is a blatant attempt at deception!)
Actually there was an 8 that followed that statement which was referencing this statement
"Secular astronomers believe that blue stars must have formed relatively recently. But there are considerable difficulties in star formation scenarios—problems with magnetic fields and angular momentum to name a couple." So then we would need to research how stars are created according to evolution and what evidence creationists have for disputing that. So in a way you could say they were being deceptive, but in reality the information was there. And here is a link that responds to the question of star formation.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n4/stars-of-heaven-confirm
As I have said before believe what you want, because neither is a 100%proven and neither will ever be 100% proven. The point is that creationists do use science not only to back up their claims but to refute evolutionary claims and evolution does the same we just have to do the research and come to our own conclusion of the truth. I have yet to see how evolution can explain the origin of life or how it accounts for the development of organisms from one-celled to humans. I also don't see how evolution accounts for intelligence and the intracasies of the universe. Evolution to me goes against common sense, therfore I will believe in God. Even though creationists don't have all the answers (in terms of facts) I still see that they have good plausible arguments for all the evidence evolutionists use against them. This will be the last comment I make on this. You can have the last word if you want it but I don't think we are going to change each others minds. At least you read the posts I made and the links I posted and you made reasonable arguments unlike a lot of other people I have come across.
an good article on star formation and the problems with current theories.
http://www.ldolphin.org/stars.html
I did miss the footnote, sorry. However, the footnote adds nothing to the debate except more deception. Scientists may have on-going debates about the details of star formation, but nothing in science is saying that all stars formed in the last 10,000 years, which is what the article is trying to imply. That's ridiculous. And there is still no "use" of science as you claim.
Let me clarify. There is no evidence, that I am aware of, that indicates that all stars were formed in the last 10,000 years. Please, correct me if I am wrong.
I'll let Ken carry on if he wants, but it's abundantly clear that he's talking to someone who's clueless about science - and therefore feels comfortable believing a group that manipulates science to push its agenda. Here's some key notes:
Anonymous said "we would need to research how stars are created according to evolution."
The theory of evolution says nothing about star formation. This sort of gaping ignorance about science makes it more understandable that Anon would believe "creationists use science" to support their claims... but no less wrong.
Anon said, "Evolution to me goes against common sense, therfore I will believe in God."
With this sort of outpouring of thought, it becomes much more apparent what "common sense" must mean to Anon. The Answers in Genesis crew has never - to my knowledge - showed any interest in promoting an understanding of logic or a criticism of belief.
I hate to make this sound like an ad hominem, but I'd just let Anon go his way and enjoy Expelled.
(The theory of evolution says nothing about star formation. This sort of gaping ignorance about science makes it more understandable that Anon would believe "creationists use science" to support their claims... but no less wrong.)
The theory of evolution includes the big bang it is not just from when life began. If it includes the big bang then it includes cosmic evolution. If your idea of the theory of evolution starts when life has appeared on the earth then why do you have a problem with creation.
I'll answer on my own blog, I've helped this comment thread run around all over the place (sorry Alonzo), so if you want to discuss the topic more feel free to check up there.
Summary of this post: The idea of God is harmful to humanity in general, because it is anti-science.
I have not heard a single logical argument on why God is anti-science or irrational that did not include some logical fallacy -- usually ad hominem, straw man, or tautology.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen many defensive arguments without the same problems. (sigh)
bluenight
Your summary is incorrect.
I have said that there is no scientific proposition containing a 'God' component that explains and predicts real-world events (that is to say, can be tested) better than existing scientific propositions - all of which lack a 'God' component.
As recently as 50 years ago we could have said the same thing about continental drift. This is a surprisingly recent theory. A few people accepted it, but many did not.
However, eventually, continental drift proponents were able to show that their theory yields better explanations and predictings than other competing theories, and it came to be adopted, until today few scientists doubt the theory of plate techtonics.
If intelligent design theorists want to get their theory into science classes, let them show that their theory can yield better explanations and predictions than other theories.
Plate techtonic theorists did not get their theories into science classes by going to the courts and demanding 'equal time' for a theory they could not support. They took their case to the peer-reviewed scientific journals to show when and where their theory defeated all competing theories.
That is where this battle should be fought. Not in courts and legislatures.
Let it also be stated that the creationist tactic of deciding science by legislation and school boards instead of peer-reviewed journals had lead to many millions in court costs and fees that then had to be paid not by tax-free churches or the Discovery Institute but by struggling public schools, communities, and every taxpayer in America.
wow, for a supposed great mind, you are an idiot alfonse, i.e. at least as far as freedom of speech is concerned, lol.
you seem to have proved stein correct in his fear of what idiots like you are doing. witch hunts against anyone who doesn't agree with your theories. you're a scary guy alonzo!
bridges of clay? where did you get that? what a moron. lmao @
the supposed superiority of alonso, lol...
oh, and don't bother responding alonso, i don't have time to come back to this idiotic website...
still lmao at alonso, lol, lol, lol...
After reading the article and many of the responses that no one is right, but that doesn't mean anyone is wrong. I have mixed beliefs on the subject of Creationism vs. Darwinism. To a Creationist they consider their beliefs to be fact, but to a Darwinist they see these beliefs as opinion. And vise versa. So if everyone will just relax and stop trying to convince everyone that what they believe is right, then everyone will be happy. Because in truth most people are not going to change what they believe just based on an argument they've had. For most it takes some event in their life to change their perception of a situation. I read the points made in the article and its responses (which i felt were more or less overly dramatic) and thought "noted." I am not going to change what I think, but I will have those thoughts in my head as I live day to day. And who knows maybe an event will occur in my life that will change my views one way or the other.
anonymous
Please note that my posting did not address the issue of whether intelligent design was right or not.
The question is whether or not intelligent design is science. Are the claims that intelligent design is right science claims, or are they some other type of claim?
In order for intelligent design to be a science claim, one has to have a theory in which intelligent design is a component and show that it more accurately predicts the results of various experiments than theories without these components.
In short, ID theorists need to get their theory into science classes the same way that, for example, plate techtonics theorists did. Plate techtonics theorists did not go to legislators to complain that scientists are not presenting their ideas in science classes - claiming that 'free speech' requires science books to include plate techtonics. They produced peer-reviewed research that shows how the theory explains earthquakes, volcanoes, the shape of the continents, undersea ridges, the distribution of fossiles, etc.
The fact is, ID theorists cannot produce this type of result. ID is not a scientific theory, it is just throwing up one's hands and saying, "Since I do not know how to explain X - then God must have done it."
That is simply not science.
Not everyone relies on science to explain what goes on around them. You look at things from a scientific perspective, while others look at things from a theological perspective. To call one wrong is in my opinion ignorant and some what insensitive. And to answer the question of whether I agree with Darwin, I do not. I look at Darwin and I see a man who could not explain the world. That is why he came up with his theory. He strikes me as something of a nihilist. His theory is looking at things around himself, not being able to explain them, and simply saying well everything just happens by chance. And that may be, but if that is the case then it is kind of sad. And I am not terribly well educated on the subject and I don't claim to be, which is why I am avoiding getting in an argument about what I believe. My point is that what someone believes is the truth to them. There might be indisputable evidence proving someone is wrong, but it doesn't matter. People believe what they choose to believe. And don't take this the wrong way, but I would like to know your qualifications to speak on the subject. Are you just a very opinionated blogger, or are you and expert in the field. If you are an expert then I feel your point should be considered and discussed civilly, but if you are just a blogger then be careful to speak of things as absolute truths. Because it just might be that you have been misinformed. And again I do not mean to attack you personally. I would simply like to understand how you gather your information. Remember not everything you read is truth.
Anonymous
The question under discussion is the legitimately of presenting Intelligent Design as science. The fact that there are ways of knowing that are not science does not change the fact that science classes and science research focuses on the ways of knowing that are science. And if intelligent design is not science then it should not be presented as science.
NO IT IS NOT! For your information my father is a born again Christian. Now he does not look to science to affirm his faith. Faith is believing without seeing. Although, believers of ID do use science as a means to prove their position, whether that be archeological digs, carbon dating, etc. FYI Christians are not ignorant of the modern world. I still respect your beliefs, and most people do. So it only seems polite to stop attacking others opinions. Because that is exactly what it is. There is no scientific evidence suggesting the Darwinian theory is true. It isn't really a theory it is an idea created by a man who did not know the answers. So I fail to understand how this is any different that what you believe of Christians. The main stream Christian following accept many of these scientific breakthroughs. I believe in plate tectonics, global warming, etc. I even am very open to the Big Bang theory, but I would see it as a work of God. So really I believe everything you believe, except I add God into the equation. I don't like to leave things to chance. And I would like to suggest that you look into a career in politics because your previous point failed to answer my question. You sounded like Rudy Giulliani, no offense. And I assume you are just an opinionated blogger. So again take care in what you consider to be absolute truths. Just because I believe in a God, (I am still somewhat unsure of just what my God believes. But that is a story for a different day.) that does not mean I am not open to different ideas. I find it strange that someone accusing Christians of being closed minded seems far more closed minded than most Christians. I believe this comes down to the fact that Christianity is open to science, but science is not open to Christianity. This is why Ben Stein is making this documentary. Just think about what I have said. (But in keeping with my first post, I don't expect you to change your mind.)
P.S. I would like to shoot you my email address. It is nice to be able to hold discussions with those of different beliefs.
Most recent Anonymous-
I wrote a post to answer some of (I think) another Anonymous' comments here:
http://thelockeronline.blogspot.com/
2007/12/toe-and-big-bang.html
Most of your last comment was very tangential to the original topic. However, your questions and positions merit answers - civilized people can discuss them and, perhaps, provide new insights to one another. If you like holding discussions with those of different beliefs, here's a chance.
g-man,
I realize my previous comment was off topic (Although, no more off topic than Mr. Fyfe's previous comment), but it was merely a reply to the statement made by Mr. Fyfe. And thank you for the link, but I really can not see myself contributing regularly to a blog. It really is not my thing when I think about it. But thank you for the invite. I gave it a brief look and it looked like I would be one of the only ID proponents. Although, I relish a challenge I am not much of a computer guy. And by the way I am all Anonymous responses from 11:52 down. You might read what I wrote in those. I feel it would give you greater insight into the way I feel. Simply put, I advise people to gu