Saturday, August 29, 2009

Conversation Topic 02: Pledge Activism

I am away from my blog for a couple of weeks. This is an experiment in posting some conversation topics while I am gone.

The two questions to answer relevant to the statement below is are:

• Is it true?

• Is it important?

(2) Anybody who is interested in fair and just government has reason to focus on getting get 'under God' removed from the Pledge of Allegiance and the Pledge of Allegiance removed from any activity involving children.

The message in the Pledge as written is that atheism is as bad as treason, tyranny, and injustice. It plants this attitude in children, where it is planted at an emotional level that is immune to reason at a later age. Where even atheist children, or children who grow up to be atheists, are forced to deal with the psychological harm caused by planting the sentiment that atheists are as undesirable as rebels, tyrants, and the unjust.

15 comments:

Kip said...

> "Anybody who is interested in fair and just government has reason to focus on getting get 'under God' removed from the Pledge of Allegiance and the Pledge of Allegiance removed from any activity involving children."

Why BOTH? It seems one or the other would suffice.

Luke said...

Anybody who is interested in just government has reason to

1. get 'under God' removed from the Pledge of Allegiance

and

2. get the Pledge of Allegiance removed from any activity involving children

I believe both are true.

The phrase 'under God' should be removed because it contributes to a baseless prejudice against atheists.

The Pledge of Allegiance should not be required because it is harmful, mind-dulling propoganda, and a blatant attempt at brainwashing, especially in conjunction with the ridiculous "history" books we teach from in American public schools. Children should not be expected to pledge allegiance to the largest terrorist state in the world. They should be expected instead to harshly condemn government when it is massively evil, and encourage it to good.

Eneasz said...

1A. I think the harm of the 'under God' is obvious, and I don't see how anyone could dispute the truth of the proposition that it should be removed.

1B. I think it's important as a mid-term goal, but there are more pressing concerns right now. The exact amount of harm done is very hard to measure, and the resources it would take to change the pledge are overwhelming. They are put to better use elsewhere until the costs of this go down. However in the meantime it is still good to occasionally draw attention to this injustice so those sympathetic to justice don't forget.

2. I'm torn on the issue of removing a pledge entirely from any activity involving children. For the most part I agree with Luke that it's propaganda, but I've heard some decent arguments from the other side, so I don't feel comfortable taking a side.

anton said...

Re 2: TRUE

Look at how difficult it is to tell US American's the truth that one of the largest genocides in the history of the world was the white man killing the natives in the America's. There were no "Indian wars" unless it becomes a war when a people attempt to defend their lives and their lands from invaders. (Just like people in the middle east, Asia, central America, South America) US America sanctifies itself by convincing its people that it is spreading "democracy" and the "gospel" to those countries that don't know better. The Afghan right are just trying to do what doing what US America's right did in the 2000 election in Florida . . . win!

JeniDiver said...

I wish 'under god' was taken out. it should never have been in there at all. But even if it were removed it'd be fifty years before people would stop thinking it and long before then someone would have led the charge to put it back in. A never win situation.

As for the pledge being "mind-dulling propoganda, and a blatant attempt at brainwashing" Of course it is! Which is precisely why it should be included in the education of children. Who do we want the young to be loyal to if not THIS country, America?

I believe in patriotism and love of country. I believe that we must teach youngsters that family and country are the most important things in the world. If we don't we leave a void that gets filled with the first radical person or notion the kids meet as teens like Moonies and religious fanatics or Charles Manson for cripes sake.

anton said...

JeniDiver: Who do we want the young to be loyal to if not THIS country, America?

Try "Truth" and "Morality"! Mind you, that might get in the way of "family" and "US America" . . . but the young people would be better off and so, hopefully, would be our world!

JeniDiver said...

Truth and morality.

It's odd that you imply that one cannot be loyal to and love one's country and family and also be a truthful and moral person.

I disagree.

Emu Sam said...

JenDiver, you asked "Who do we want the young to be loyal to if not THIS country, America?"

If I had a choice between being loyal to America and being loyal to morality (I think truth would mostly come under morality) which would you rather I picked?

If there some reason why a child should be taught to be loyal to US America instead of France? What if that child were born in China?

anton said...

JeniDiver: Your original comment was to be loyal to "America" which would mean endorsing its actions both at home and abroad. Yes, there are some countries that deserve respect . . . US America is not one of them. Try getting a copy of Ronald Wright's What is America and get your children to read it first. They should have some questions for you . . . and some of the them will be difficult to answer correctly for a person who accepts "brainwashing" so easily!

Anonymous said...

It's very nice that you hold China and France in high esteem. THIS TOPIC is about teaching AMERICAN children the AMERICAN pledge.

I doubt you will find many AMERICANS who want their children taught loyalty to a foreign country over loyalty to America. (Well, maybe YOU will find some but believe me, they are not the rule.)

As far as morality vs loyalty goes - in my life I have found that I, and the people I associate with, have no problem being both moral and having loyalty and reverance for our country. That also is the rule - people in America are moral and patriotic. I'll bet a dollar that most people in most developed nations are both moral and patriotic.

Jeni Diver

Anonymous said...

To Anton.

I am new here and having trouble posting so if this comes in as from anonymous I apologize. The other option was to give up trying to post.

Loyalty and Blind following are two different things. My country is not infallable. No country is.

Loyalty does not mean blindly following anything and everything. Sometimes it means change and working for a better tomorrow. Only a simpleton would insist that everything is perfect as it is and nothing ever needs changing.

anton said...

Jeni Diver -- it is obvious by your comments that the matter of "truth" has been dropped from your arguments.

The conflict should surface when, and if, your children start to question if "loyalty trumps truth".

Should they be loyal to "family" even if Daddy is a drug dealer and Mommy is bootlegger? Should they fail to question what US America is doing when it is doing things that are not good for the rest of the world? Does US American citizenship mean you have to automatically endorse immoral actions US America executes against other nations?

anton said...

"Sometimes it means change and working for a better tomorrow."

So, rewrite the Pledge of Allegiance and include "change" and "honesty" as a part of the "brainwashing". If this "foreigner" can remember correctly, the US American pledge fails to include any need for "self inspection". In fact, I believe the pledge says that "America is perfect".

Anonymous said...

From Jeni Diver.

I revert to my original post and I'll leave it there as I don't wish to engage in absurd topic drift that veered wildly from teaching children love of country to having children hold the cocaine while dad shoots up.

"I wish 'under god' was taken out. it should never have been in there at all. But even if it were removed it'd be fifty years before people would stop thinking it and long before then someone would have led the charge to put it back in. A never win situation.

"As for the pledge being "mind-dulling propoganda, and a blatant attempt at brainwashing" Of course it is! Which is precisely why it should be included in the education of children. Who do we want the young to be loyal to if not THIS country, America?

"I believe in patriotism and love of country. I believe that we must teach youngsters that family and country are the most important things in the world. If we DON'T WE LEAVE A VOID THAT GETS FILLED WITH THE FIRST RADICAL PERSON OR NOTION THE KIDS MEET AS TEENS [WHEN THEY ARE EXTREMELY IMPRESSIONABLE] like Moonies and religious fanatics or Charles Manson for cripes sake."

Unless you can get back to the original subject I see no reason for me to keep repeating that loyalty, truth and morality do not exclude each other. Children can and do learn it all.

anton said...

JeniDiver:
Children can and do learn it all. I agree with you about kids, but question your "faith" in the kids if you believe that if you don't brainwash them first you leave a "void" THAT GETS FILLED WITH THE FIRST RADICAL PERSON OR NOTION THE KIDS MEET AS TEENS [WHEN THEY ARE EXTREMELY IMPRESSIONABLE] like Moonies and religious fanatics or Charles Manson for cripes sake."

What happens if someone comes along and tells them the truth about early US American history? OR, what if they learn the truth about the last 25 years?