tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post9219444372631448387..comments2023-10-24T04:29:23.693-06:00Comments on Atheist Ethicist: Unsound Moral Reasoning: 4 ExamplesAlonzo Fyfehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-81055862450657084082007-07-25T20:57:00.000-06:002007-07-25T20:57:00.000-06:00anonymousActually, my answer to the question is th...<B>anonymous</B><BR/><BR/>Actually, my answer to the question is that I do not see the question as leading to any substantive conclusion.<BR/><BR/>I think that a vast majority of readers will have hard the argument often enough to know what I was talking about.<BR/><BR/>And, if I am wrong, that this particular horse is already dead, then beating a dead horse may be a waste of time, but certainly does not wrong the horse.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, use your favorite search engine and search on moral subjectivism and you will find examples of the view that I am referring to.<BR/><BR/>Such as: <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_subjectivism" REL="nofollow">in wikipedia</A>, which says that <I>all ethical sentences reduce to factual statements about the attitudes of individuals</I>.<BR/><BR/>I have seen a number of attempts to defend moral subjectivism. I have also seen a lot of attempts to defend the idea that God can be 1 person and 3 people at the same time. I have not seen one that even comes close to working.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-21027671689078957292007-07-25T19:25:00.000-06:002007-07-25T19:25:00.000-06:00“I desire that everybody do X; therefore, everybod...<I> “I desire that everybody do X; therefore, everybody has an obligation to do X.”</I><BR/><BR/>So I guess the answer is, "no I don't have any examples of this pathetic strawman, because I just made it up."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-44506152045362158592007-07-24T05:31:00.000-06:002007-07-24T05:31:00.000-06:00Jonathan; G-ManYes, the fact that we desire is an ...<B>Jonathan; G-Man</B><BR/><BR/>Yes, the fact that we desire is an evolved trait, and our desires have been molded through evolution to include desires that tend to promote survival of the gene (desire for sex, desire for high calorie food, preferences for a particular temperature range). All of this is true.<BR/><BR/>G-man described one problem with defining morality as 'the desire to do good' is that it still leaves the question unanswered, "What is 'doing good'?" How do we determine when we are doing good and when we are not doing good?<BR/><BR/>Another problem is that morality seems to apply to any number of desires. If you are in the hospital, and somebody comes to visit you, what would you rather hear him say? "I came to see you because I felt it was my duty to do so." or "I came to see you because I am worried about you and I wanted to cheer you up, or see if I can help in some way."<BR/><BR/>In fact, most good deeds are not motivated by a desire to do good at all.<BR/><BR/>Now, clearly, I think that sound or strong moral arguments are possible. So, this is not a post that says that we cannot speak sensibly about right and wrong. It is a post that states that these are four examples of failure to speak sensibly about right and wrong.<BR/><BR/>I hold that the only thing we need to speak sensibly about morality are desires that are NOT genetically determined, but that can be molded through social forces. As soon as a desire is shown to be genetically determined, it has been taken <I>outside</I> the realm of morality, because it makes no sense to apply social forces (praise, condemnation, reward, punishment) to things that social forces cannot affect.<BR/><BR/>Indeed, this is another question that the genetic moralist cannot answer.<BR/><BR/>If morality is genetically determined, then how does it make sense to 'praise' somebody for doing good or to 'condemn' him for doing evil? Does it make sense to condemn a person for failure to have a particular gene?<BR/><BR/>Praise and condemnation, which are central to moral institutions, make sense because they have an affect on our desires - because they can promote desires we have reason to promote and inhibit desires we have reason to inhibit. This is possible - morality itself is possible - precisely <I>because</I> genes do not completely control our behavior.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-78573739957302511712007-07-24T05:11:00.000-06:002007-07-24T05:11:00.000-06:00Atheist ObserverThe position that I am objecting t...<B>Atheist Observer</B><BR/><BR/>The position that I am objecting to is one that holds that 'ought' do not describe things in the world.<BR/><BR/>I hold that the relationship between 'ought' statements and 'is' statements is like the relationship between 'square' and 'rectangle' or between 'lion' and 'cat'.<BR/><BR/>Clearly, in this type of relationship, it does not follow from 'X is a rectangle' that 'X is a square'. Similarly, 'X is an is statement' does not imply 'X is an ought statement'. There are a great many 'is' statements that are not 'ought' statements, just as there are a great many rectangles that are not squares.<BR/><BR/>Also, in this type of relationship, 'X is a square' does not imply 'X is not a rectangle'. However, the view that I am raising objections to is the view that 'X is an ought statement' does imply 'X is not an is statement'. These are two distinct and separate kinds of things. Or, as David Hume asserted (according to the most popular interpretation of his writings), 'ought' statements describe a different sort of relationship from 'is' statements so that it is impossible for the former to be derived from the latter.<BR/><BR/>The issue originated in a set of arguments that attempted an invalid inference from 'is' to 'ought'. For example, those who argued 'God created man; therefore, man has an obligation to obey God'. Hume said more than this type of statement is an invalid inference. Hume argued that 'obligations' refer to a type of entity that cannot be talked about in terms of what 'is' the case. <BR/><BR/>So, it is not 'word games' to assert that people sever the concept of 'ought' so completely from the world of 'is'. The 'is' vs 'ought' distinction says that there is, in fact, no way for an 'ought' statement to fit inside the 'is' universe.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-17233778047523553022007-07-24T01:55:00.000-06:002007-07-24T01:55:00.000-06:00"There is only a distinction between ‘is’ and ‘is ..."<I>There is only a distinction between ‘is’ and ‘is not’ – and if ‘ought’ cannot fit in with what ‘is’, then the only place left for it is in the realm of what ‘is not’.<BR/><BR/>This is equivalent to the statement “There is no distinction between "vertical" and "light." There is only a distinction between light and darkness. If vertical isn't light, it must be darkness.”</I>"<BR/><BR/>_If this isn't a textbook example of begging the question, I'm not quite sure what is. It automatically jumps to the conclusion that "is" and "ought" are as different as "vertical" and "light."<BR/><BR/>Jonathan-<BR/><BR/>"<I>That we desire, I think, is an evolved trait. Morality can be thought of as a type of desire -- the desire to do good.</I><BR/><BR/>_Of course, I agree that the fact that we desire is an evolved trait - and one shared by numerous other members of the animal kingdom. However, I'm not quite sure I follow the second part. Morality is basically the idea there there is right and wrong behavior. That reduces your basic argument to 'Good behavior = the desire to behave in a good way.'<BR/><BR/>That's quite obvious, under the assumption of BDI theory. Yet it seems a bit tautological and doesn't give us much... for instance, you say that good moral behavior is doing good. Without further elaboration, this is a bit hazy in its failure to actually describe what is 'good.'<BR/><BR/>"<I>I think that the reason we can talk sensibly about morality is because, by and large, we all share the empathetic and cooperative tendencies that make morality possible.</I>"<BR/>_Again, I agree insofar as that humans share a basic genetic structure and set of values. Still, you're describing cooperative and empathetic tendencies - which is a description, rather than a prescription. In a moral theory, we're looking for the latter.<BR/><BR/>So we're made to assume that cooperation and empathy are 'good.' We know they're good because... oh, I don't know. You tell me. What I think Mr. Fyfe is describing is a set of behaviors that objectively have the tendency to fulfill or to thwart the desires of other human beings. <BR/><BR/>'Good' = those that fulfill; 'bad' = those that thwart. This set of desires are phenomena that exist objectively, regardless of how you choose to use the term 'morality.' I hope I haven't missed anything or trodden on too many toes...G-manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09334547875471663650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-2769078558224921842007-07-23T23:33:00.000-06:002007-07-23T23:33:00.000-06:00Yes, mirror neurons is what I was refering to.I'm ...Yes, mirror neurons is what I was refering to.<BR/><BR/>I'm still not sure I'm following you. In other posts, I recall that you regard 'desires' as a matter of fact. I agree with this proposition. That we desire, I think, is an evolved trait. Morality can be thought of as a type of desire -- the desire to do good.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying that just because a trait evolved it's right. I think that the reason we can talk sensibly about morality is because, by and large, we all share the empathetic and cooperative tendencies that make morality possible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-53807452803009835432007-07-23T18:05:00.000-06:002007-07-23T18:05:00.000-06:00Alonzo,Sometimes your reasoning is clear and compe...Alonzo,<BR/><BR/>Sometimes your reasoning is clear and compelling. Other times it seems more like you are playing semantic games. Yes everything either exists, or it doesn’t exist. Since the concept of ought is a thing, it either exists or it doesn’t exist. But to follow that with the statement that there is no distinction between is and ought is fallacious. You could make the same case that there is no distinction between wombat and is.<BR/>You address my understanding of the usual philosophical issue between ought and is elsewhere in your post, basically saying the is of an evolved feeling does not translate into an ought of moral justification for acting on that feeling.. <BR/>I believe most people define “ought” as a statement about the moral desirability of a state of affairs, which is distinctly different concept than the concept of whether that state of affairs exists or does not exist at a given point in time.<BR/>Didn’t this issue originate from the attitude common among the fortunate that “This is the way things are, so this is how they ought to be?” While this argument is incorrect, it isn’t necessarily circular.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-45436462033171967092007-07-23T16:26:00.000-06:002007-07-23T16:26:00.000-06:00"Another form of argument that is very popular, an...<I>"Another form of argument that is very popular, and also entirely unsound, is the argument from personal preference. It is an argument that states, “I desire that everybody do X; therefore, everybody has an obligation to do X.”"</I><BR/><BR/>Do you have any examples of this "very popular" argument you could cite?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-71142296103321875412007-07-23T15:18:00.000-06:002007-07-23T15:18:00.000-06:00Atheist ObserverWe know that there are things othe...<B>Atheist Observer</B><BR/><BR/>We know that there are things other than light and darkness that things can be.<BR/><BR/>The claim that there are alternatives other than 'is' and 'is not' is more difficult to support.<BR/><BR/>If somebody can demonstrate to me that there is a third option other than 'is' and 'is not' - indeed, if somebody can show me how it can even make sense to say that there <I>is</I> a sensible option other than <I>is</I> - then they have bought themselves room to maneuver.<BR/><BR/>People who say that there are options other than light and darkness have room to maneuver, because they are right.<BR/><BR/>People who say that there are options other than 'is' and 'is not' have not successfully completed this step yet.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-9837978364164813772007-07-23T13:49:00.000-06:002007-07-23T13:49:00.000-06:00Here is where I insert my view that there is no di...Here is where I insert my view that there is no distinction between ‘is’ and ‘ought’. There is only a distinction between ‘is’ and ‘is not’ – and if ‘ought’ cannot fit in with what ‘is’, then the only place left for it is in the realm of what ‘is not’.<BR/><BR/>This is equivalent to the statement “There is no distinction between "vertical" and "light." There is only a distinction between light and darkness. If vertical isn't light, it must be darkness.”<BR/><BR/>We can state it is desirable for someone to act so as to fulfill the desires of others irrespective of whether that person ultimately acts in that manner. We can also say one ought not to torture children even if no torturing of children is taking place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-23455290097675594752007-07-23T13:41:00.000-06:002007-07-23T13:41:00.000-06:00JonathanI believe that you are talking about mirro...<B>Jonathan</B><BR/><BR/>I believe that you are talking about mirror neurons - which generate a sensation when witnessing something that happened to another another person as if it has happened to you. So, if you poke somebody with a pin, another person observing that will have a brain reaction that mirrors the reaction of the person actually poked.<BR/><BR/>Let's say that you have this trait.<BR/><BR/>What makes this <I>moral</I>?<BR/><BR/>You have described that you have a particular trait, but now you have to explain to me why it is a good thing (or a bad thing) that you have this trait.<BR/><BR/>Morality requires more than saying, "I have an evolved disposition to do X." If this was sufficient, then an evolved disposition to rape would make rape moral, and an evolved disposition to slaughter members of 'out group' tribes would be moral.<BR/><BR/>You have to say, "I have an evolved disposition to do X <I>and having an evolved disposition to do X is a good thing</I>.<BR/><BR/>Not only is it a 'good thing', but it is a particular type of good thing. Color sight is a good thing but saying that one has an evolved tendency to perceive color hardly counts as a <I>moral</I> claim.<BR/><BR/>So, now you need to say, "I have an evolved disposition to do X, it is a good thing that I have evolved this disposition, and it is a particular type of 'good thing' known as a 'morally' good thing."<BR/><BR/>So, an evolutionary biologist has done an experiment to show that we have an evolved capacity for X. Now, he says, "I am going to conduct a test to prove that we not only have an evolved capacity for X, but that X contains the property of 'moral goodness'.?<BR/><BR/>What does that test for moral goodness look like? How do we determine if it is successful?<BR/><BR/>This is the problem I allude to when I say that genetic morality has exactly the same problem as religious morality.<BR/><BR/>Religious morality cannot answer the question, "Is it loved by God because it is good, or is it good because it is loved by God?"<BR/><BR/>Genetic morality cannot answer the question, "Is it loved by our genes because it is good, or is it good because it is loved by our genes?"Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-81086156389710180672007-07-23T12:53:00.000-06:002007-07-23T12:53:00.000-06:00"This must be an evolved trait, and, as such, it p..."This must be an evolved trait, and, as such, it probably is a feeling that is distributed unevenly amoung populations."<BR/><BR/>I am glad you have brought this up, for I have taken the same line of argument with Alonzo, that is capacities for morality, like empathy, can be an evolved trait, differentially expressed in human populations. Yet, this is not a mutually exclusive position that allows us to escape human reasoning on the specifics of what are moral or immoral actions.<BR/><BR/>I am anxious to hear his reply.Sheldonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03743116454273042629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-44230006881411581542007-07-23T11:28:00.000-06:002007-07-23T11:28:00.000-06:00I'm not sure I follow your critique on the genetic...I'm not sure I follow your critique on the genetic/evolutionary basis of morality. I read studies by... a man with a long Indian name, who is a doctor of neuroscience and whose name I can't remember... that there is a region in the brain that handles empahetic feelings. This must be an evolved trait, and, as such, it probably is a feeling that is distributed unevenly amoung populations. While I wouldn't say, "It is wrong to bear false witness because I have been programmed by evolution to adopt the attitude that it is wrong to bear false witness," I would say that I have evolved empathy for my fellow man. My personal prohiibition against "bearing false witness" is an extention of that impluse. What about those who have a lower empathetic threshold? It doesn't matter how sound your reasoning, they'll not understand why they should be moral. What to do with these people is the $64,000.00 question.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that moral impuses evolved, but the application of these impulses is culturally determined -- somewhat like language. The main difference with language, however, is that with morality, we can use our shared moral impluses to talk rationally about better and worse cultral applications of morality, while it would be hard to argue that one language is "better" than another.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com