tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post8233557274274415992..comments2023-10-24T04:29:23.693-06:00Comments on Atheist Ethicist: Objections Considered: Other DesiresAlonzo Fyfehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-12357517697486222232010-01-31T04:59:51.252-07:002010-01-31T04:59:51.252-07:00As "Writer 1", I strongly protest your d...As "Writer 1", I strongly protest your depiction of me. You even go so far as to misquote me. I never said "What is useful for us is what we want to do, not what tends to fulfill our desires."; I said "What's useful for us is what we want to do, not what tends to fulfill OTHER desires." [emphasis added], as can seen here:<br />https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=16594468&postID=8168325024532883009<br /><br />I never defended the thesis of object-egoism, and always adhered to subject-egoism. <br /><br />What I <i>did</i> do is note on the slippery way in which the subject-egoist strategy of talking others into furthering your own desires turns into "promoting in others those desires that tend to fulfill other desires and inhibiting in others those desires that tend to thwart other desires". As a descriptive theory, it is a non sequitur that ignores the fact that the tendency to fulfill other desires is not the sole virtue a desire can have in its role as an infectious meme, and is a static theory that doesn't even begin to describe the actual dynamics of the process. As a prescriptive theory, it is theology - inventing a Divine Will to follow, instead of following our own will.יאיר רזקhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15798134654972572485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-83223589697985206922010-01-29T15:41:32.776-07:002010-01-29T15:41:32.776-07:00We are talking about training up young children - ...We are talking about training up young children - this is a large part of morality. What should a child want to do when they become an adult? What should we as a society want most adults to want, and how can we best train society in that direction? Praise, condemnation, reward and punishment. This includes physical punishment and incarceration for the worst moral offenses. Most people don't care enough about beef-eating to do more than hand you pamphlets if they want to stop you.<br /><br />Suppose a vegetable company put millions of dollars into an anti-beef advertising campaign. They would vilify and condemn beef (perhaps using concepts of fat, lack of nutrition, and unpleasantly colored lighting) and praise vegetables and being all things that beef is not (plus more pleasant lights and music). Does ominous/light/tragic music constitute praise or condemnation? It certainly guides thoughts along those lines.<br /><br />Moral-should is concerned with morals on the mass level. Any people we interact with, we want to be moral enough not to lie to us. And in order to get the best information, we want no one to lie to the people we interact with. In today's world, the level of interaction is planet-wide. We have reason to condemn lying no matter who does it. We want children to grow up hearing stories of liars who are punished for their lie. We want large corporations to think that, if they lie, the gain will not be worth the punishment.<br /><br /><i> People Generally</i> is a phrase Alonzo Fyfe uses a lot. It seems to lead to a lot of misunderstandings. It contains aspects of a majority of people, but also aspects of the strength of their desires. To replace that two-word phrase often requires a paragraph or two. It's far easier to type two words and refer people to a glossary if necessary.<br /><br />People generally means children and adults both. In some contexts it includes those not yet born. Currently, over a third of the world is aged 0-19 (US Census international database estimates 35% in 2009), and a big part of morality according to DU is the messages those impressionable minds receive while growing up.Emu Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05352556221263050952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-83768773561917640032010-01-29T10:48:46.699-07:002010-01-29T10:48:46.699-07:00I disagree that a person can be made to hate lying...I disagree that a person can be made to hate lying or spinach or anything else. Unless you are talking about training up young children--which can be done to a certain extent. Unless you are talking about actual physical punishment, or brainwashing. <br /><br />All the twarting attempts to build aversions in the world won't stop me from, for example, eating beef (medium rare, thanks). Likewise, no amount of encouragement will make me stop. <br /><br />Now, obviously our legal system has a certain amount of deterrent effect, if nothing else than to keep locked up those who commit offenses. But if it was as simple as you make it sound we could simply brain-wash convicts while they are incarcerated. <br /><br />p.s. Well, maybe you'll have better results with some of the people who seem believe in DU. I really hope that you do, because aside from you being an atheist you seem to have many of the same morals as do I.John Doehttp://maaadddog.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.com