tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post785936115852841375..comments2023-10-24T04:29:23.693-06:00Comments on Atheist Ethicist: The Copenhagen Declaration on Religion in Public Life - Part 11Alonzo Fyfehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-83212726447124753042010-07-30T10:10:55.909-06:002010-07-30T10:10:55.909-06:00A young child who learns that crossing the street ...<i>A young child who learns that crossing the street is "against the rules" is one thing, but learning WHY it is against the rules is another. At some point the child can learn why: They could get hurt. I think that "reason" could be quite effective at helping the child "do the right thing" and probably even "feel the right way about the action."</i><br /><br />No. These types of reasons can be quite effective at helping a child do the prudent thing, but not necessarily the right thing.<br /><br />Crossing the street is imprudent - it risks states of affairs that thwart the desires of the child. Because its outcome is tied to the desires of the child, then the child has reason to avoid that state of affairs.<br /><br />But how do you teach a child not to lie, or to steal, or to kill, when it is in the child's interest to do so? Either you are going to have to lie to child and say that he can never benefit from lying or stealing or killing (e.g., by claiming an all-knowing God exists from whom he will not be able to hide his crimes and who will make him suffer for them.)<br /><br />Or you can . . . what?<br /><br />The thing to do is to give a child an aversion to lying, stealing, and killing. But this is not done by giving the child facts. This is done by using praise and condemnation to mold the child's desires.<br /><br />Facts are only relevant in determining whether a state of affairs fulfills or thwards a desire the child already has. They are impotent when it comes to changing those desires - promoting good desires or inhibiting bad desires.<br /><br />There is no fact that entails or implies a change in desire. It only has implications for what fulfills or thwarts an existing desire.<br /><br /><br /><i>"Indoctrination" tends to indicate a parent's ability to tell their children what to think. This is authoritarian when it is without reason and merely about the power of the parent. It is authoritative when there are reasons for the beliefs. Our beliefs about what desires are good or bad will have a little bit to do with what sorts of desires we will promote or strengthen rather than neglect and ignore.</i><br /><br />In order to teach a child what to think, some ideas already have to be there for the child to think on.<br /><br />Try explaining to somebody why they should believe X when you are starting with somebody who has no beliefs at all. What would you say to such a person? How can you even communicate with such a person?<br /><br />These first beliefs cannot come from reason. They have to come from "someplace else". All future beliefs that come from reason will come from their relationship to these non-reason-based "first beliefs".Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-17906793225304829422010-07-29T17:11:11.943-06:002010-07-29T17:11:11.943-06:00A young child who learns that crossing the street ...A young child who learns that crossing the street is "against the rules" is one thing, but learning WHY it is against the rules is another. At some point the child can learn why: They could get hurt. I think that "reason" could be quite effective at helping the child "do the right thing" and probably even "feel the right way about the action."<br /><br />"Indoctrination" tends to indicate a parent's ability to tell their children what to think. This is authoritarian when it is without reason and merely about the power of the parent. It is authoritative when there are reasons for the beliefs. Our beliefs about what desires are good or bad will have a little bit to do with what sorts of desires we will promote or strengthen rather than neglect and ignore.J. W. Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11067571798078607263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-59475399323591099052010-07-29T16:23:52.793-06:002010-07-29T16:23:52.793-06:00J.W. Gray
Yes, I hold that there are moral facts ...<b>J.W. Gray</b><br /><br />Yes, I hold that there are moral facts that can be learned - moral facts that are true or false.<br /><br />And, yes, these facts can be complicated.<br /><br />But learning a moral facts does not teach you how to be a good person, any more than learning bicycle-riding facts is an effective way to learn how to ride a bicycle.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-47932622938755625732010-07-29T14:54:41.258-06:002010-07-29T14:54:41.258-06:00There are people who tell their children to believ...There are people who tell their children to believe certain acts are right or wrong and I think that is the normal way of doing it.<br /><br />Desirism itself gives a method to judge both desires and possibly actions. A desire can be moral or immoral. That is a cognitive judgment that can be true or false.<br /><br />Praise and blame is insufficient for moral judgments. Praise what? Anger? Anger about certain things and not others? Which desires are appropriate can obviously be pretty complected.J. W. Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11067571798078607263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-28773620505932137092010-07-29T06:33:49.603-06:002010-07-29T06:33:49.603-06:00J.W. Gray
Let me provide another analogy, if I ma...<b>J.W. Gray</b><br /><br />Let me provide another analogy, if I may.<br /><br />You can give a child a whole series of lectures on how to ride a bike, complete with the all sorts of graphs and pictures.<br /><br />But it's not the same as teaching the child how to ride a bike.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-12438765660718756232010-07-29T05:33:30.288-06:002010-07-29T05:33:30.288-06:00J.W. Gray
At some point a child can start to lea...<b>J.W. Gray</b><br /><br /><i> At some point a child can start to learn the reasons why actions are wrong rather than demanding pure obedience or thoughtless agreement.</i><br /><br />The teaching of values is not the teaching of beliefs. It is the teaching of desires.<br /><br />It is not accomplished through the presentation of disjunctive syllogisms and experimental demonstrations. It is accomplished through praise and condemantion.<br /><br />And, like the teaching of a language, it is done when the child is young - too young to understand what is being done, or not at all.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-39835772234226496252010-07-29T02:13:30.224-06:002010-07-29T02:13:30.224-06:00I'm not sure what they are thinking when being...I'm not sure what they are thinking when being "against indoctrination" but there are more authoritarian styles of parenting. At some point a child can start to learn the reasons why actions are wrong rather than demanding pure obedience or thoughtless agreement.J. W. Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11067571798078607263noreply@blogger.com