tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post6805082415953761079..comments2023-10-24T04:29:23.693-06:00Comments on Atheist Ethicist: 2010: Atheists in Public OfficeAlonzo Fyfehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-91194024379366924072011-11-03T15:39:29.913-06:002011-11-03T15:39:29.913-06:00I came across this blog while performing research ...I came across this blog while performing research for a paper on the influence of religion in the government. Around the age when most children start to become conscious of themselves, I are realized I didn't believe in a god. I was still in school when it became optional to say “under god.” When I omitted those two words from the pledge I became an outsider for that moment. I have a naturally booming voice. When I didn’t say “under god” the people around me looked at me as if I had done something wrong. The pledge is said in unison. By not saying “under god” I felt un-American and an outsider to my peers. I have talked to others who have shared similar experiences. Having “under god” made optional actually makes it easier to feel disconnected and making it mandatory would just make the pledge have no meaning.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-47923504927507712352010-01-03T08:50:07.443-07:002010-01-03T08:50:07.443-07:00Brian, I'd vote for an atheist with a strong a...Brian, I'd vote for an atheist with a strong and proven track record of supporting conservative values over a person who just went to church in order to gain a political base at Rev. Wright's church. Most "Christian" Republicans are phoney, any way. I view politicians as Lincoln viewed Grant. "I can't spare this man [Grant]. He FIGHTS." <br /><br />Maybe many other Christians do not feel the same way as I do. But it works both ways. I believe there is as much bias against Christians by Atheists as vice versa.John Doehttp://maaadddog.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-46667102783383431892010-01-03T06:06:17.591-07:002010-01-03T06:06:17.591-07:00Alonzo misrepresents both the magnitude and essenc...Alonzo misrepresents both the magnitude and essence of the problem implied by his statistic of only one out atheist in public office.<br /><br />The problem is primarily not how people think about atheists. The problem is how people think about how people think about atheists.<br /><br />Imagine the following voter. In the race for the House of Representatives he thinking of voting for Barney Frank, an openly gay politician with a 100% NARAL rating and an advocate of legalized drugs. He knows Frank once paid a man to have sex with him, hired him as a staffer, wrote letters on his behalf to a parole board, and then had him live in his home, from which the man began a prostitution ring. The voter is fine with Frank's liberal Judaism. However, upon learning of Frank's atheism, he decides to change his vote. (This includes not voting instead of voting and voting for an opponent instead of not voting).<br /><br />Now, take it a step further. Imagine tens of thousands of such people...in a single district in Massachusetts. <br /><br />I agree that atheism may be an obstacle, as being an unpreferred race or gender might be, but it would be ludicrous to pretend it is near an absolute bar. People already frequently vote for candidates they have many reservations about.<br /><br />The majority of congressional seats in America are safe, and many of those are held by Democrats. I don't believe that a candidate in the general election would be held back in most of those by atheism. <br /><br />Many safe seats are held by Republicans, and it is hard to know how many would be deep red under a Republican atheist because the more Republican an area is, the more likely it is to have a strong religious presence.<br /><br />Being an atheist may be a significant obstacle for a Republican seeking to excite his base. However, consider the 2008 primary election, when conservatives nominated the only candidate endorsed by the N.Y. Times - to conservatives that is akin to being endorsed by the devil himself - because they considered him their best chance to win. People are partisan.<br /><br />The dynamic undercutting an extreme application of the idea that the problem is <i>"...the way that people think about atheists..."</i> is that the more fundamentalist someone is, the more likely it is his vote is already set Republican. The less fundamentalist someone is, the less of a problem there is in how they think about atheists.<br /><br />Democrats seem to suffer from self consciousness, as if they have to prove themselves tough. I believe this accounts for many of their actions regarding the death penalty, drugs, issues of national security, and so forth. Religion seems to fit this pattern perfectly. Democrats are more ostentatiously religious than Republicans, and this stems from insecurity: individuals pretend to be more religious than they are and/or the party selects overmuch for religiosity.<br /><br />Since this is not necessary, they are like Pronghorn Antelopes evolved to elude predators that no longer exist. In any case, religious Republicans are already partisans ready to vote for atheists if they must.<br /><br />Getting an atheist nominated under one of the major parties is what is required to get an atheist elected. Atheists buying into the conventional wisdom that an out atheist can't be elected may be the main reason so few are. I don't blame the general electorate, which is not presented with out atheist candidates. Efforts should be undertaken to support atheists at lower levels of politics.<br /><br />Creating controversy over the pledge would be right even if there were only one atheist in America. However, it probably increases the liability of being an atheist and makes it harder for an out atheist to be nominated. It might be an effective strategy were your conclusion true that there was widespread dismissal of atheists as citizens that needed to be cracked, rather than moderate prejudice that is one factor of how people judge others. (Once again, the influence of the most prejudiced people is substantially limited to one party's nomination process.)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07476960140800201057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-78930520276581600262010-01-01T14:46:34.862-07:002010-01-01T14:46:34.862-07:00I appreciate that Eneasz. I get carried away easil...I appreciate that Eneasz. I get carried away easily and often. Aside from the mean delivery, if you follow my comments to this post, they all are saying essentially the same thing, just the first few were in an unkind manner. Nobody gets their mind changed by someone who is acting like a dick while trying to do it.John Doehttp://maaadddog.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-33960572358427057942009-12-31T23:13:42.399-07:002009-12-31T23:13:42.399-07:00Hi John Doe. I just wanted to say thanks for your ...Hi John Doe. I just wanted to say thanks for your latest post. It actually contributed to the discussion and was interesting. Hopefully more of your future comments will be like this one and not like the dozen before it.Eneaszhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14500232958398471146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-46576850747943047112009-12-31T14:33:05.186-07:002009-12-31T14:33:05.186-07:00You have not constructed an argument for why we sh...You have not constructed an argument for why we should not have the words "under God" in the pledge. You just don't like it. You have this illogical belief that those words somehow express "that those who do not support one nation under God deserve the same lack of respect one should give to those who do not support a nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." <br /><br />You are just reading waaaay too much into it. The majority has decided that indeed, this is one nation, under God. You don't have a right not to have your feelings hurt over your own interpretation of what they mean. Besides that you are simply wrong. I'm part of that majority, and I certainly am not saying atheists are bad people, or that they aren't worthy of being elected, and neither is the majority of America. Rather, they are saying this is a big enough tent such that even those who don't believe in God are still part of this nation "under God." <br /><br />I GET IT. You are offended because of how you perceive the words to be meant. I'm saying you are wrong. And also that you are making a big deal out of nothing. That is your right, but you don't have the right to have the vast majority cow down and change just because you don't like it. Nothing in the Constitution says Alphonzo gets to determine, based on what happens to be perceived as offensive to him, what is in the Pledge or our national motto. <br /><br />What you really are doing is trying to be a militant, sort of as certain blacks sometimes do, when they go about searching for reasons to feel offended, seeking racism that isn't there and acting all offended by perceived slights that were not meant to be taken as slights. <br /><br />Certainly, there is prejudice in America against blacks and atheists, but people who go out of there way to make mountains out of molehills of every little perceived slight do not further their--if their cause is persuading people to see what they perceive to be the truth. <br /><br />They do however further their cause if it is just to be contrary and to get attention, and to cause controversy. Which is your cause?John Doehttp://maaadddog.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-30767934284511725802009-12-31T10:47:56.556-07:002009-12-31T10:47:56.556-07:00Mottos are clearly prescriptive, not merely descri...Mottos are clearly prescriptive, not merely descriptive.<br /><br />The Marine motto <i>Semper Fidelis</i> does not say, "Well, most Marines happen to be faithful to their comrades in armes but it is okay if any given Marine is not."<br /><br />It says, "If you are not faithful to your comrades in arms, you do not deserve to call yourself a Marine."<br /><br />Similarly, a national motto of <i>In God We Trust</i> does not say, "Well, most Americans happen to trust in God but it is okay if you do not."<br /><br />It says, "If you do not trust in God, you do not deserve to call yourself one of us (an American)."<br /><br />Mottos are used to denigrate and brand as worthy of condemnation those who do not meet the conditions established by that motto.<br /><br />The national motto, then, is used to denigrate those who do not trust in God.<br /><br />Or, perhaps somebody can tell me why the national motto is different from every other motto.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-91248474473435299582009-12-31T10:46:03.600-07:002009-12-31T10:46:03.600-07:00Of course whether it is done with respect or not, ...Of course whether it is done with respect or not, if an argument is dismantled, it is simply false. If we're going to talk about how to treat others, however, I think respect is certainly worth showing in most if not all cases. I don't see how it can be said that disrespect to one person is justifiable on the grounds that that person did something wrong themselves.SS400https://www.blogger.com/profile/17307796666410840170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-33633938852384223422009-12-31T10:36:29.684-07:002009-12-31T10:36:29.684-07:00Ever think of just not mouthing those two EVIL wor...<i>Ever think of just not mouthing those two EVIL words, "under God"? Nobody has to know.</i><br /><br />I answered that option in addressing another comment. If there was a Pledge of Allegiance to "one nation without any blacks", it is absurd to argue that the statement is not racist because black people have the option not to say them.<br /><br />Also, the phrase "under God" does not represent two evil words. The evil comes from the context that says that those who do not support one nation under God deserve the same lack of respect one should give to those who do not support a nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.<br /><br />words are neither good nor evil. People are good or evil. One form that evil can take is an eagerness to unjustly denigrate whole groups of individuals and to teach children they are lesser beings (deserving the same condemnation as those who support rebellion, tyranny, or injustice) without good reason to do so.<br /><br /><i>And "In God We Trust" is hate speech? Jumping to such conclusions is why I called your reasoning juvenile.</i><br /><br />I explained my reasoning in the post above. Hate speech seeks to unjustly denigrate whole groups of people. Declaring that a person is not good enough to be considered one of "us" unless they "trust in God" is clearly denigrates those who do not trust in God by saying they are not good enough to be counted as one of "us".<br /><br /><i>My point is that acting juvenile is not the way to get elected, or to win friends and and influence people.</i><br /><br />Actually, I would disagree with that. It seems to have worked out quite well for a lot of people currently holding public office.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-22308845592974842952009-12-31T10:10:58.938-07:002009-12-31T10:10:58.938-07:00I am not interested in "respect" for arg...I am not interested in "respect" for arguments.<br /><br />An argument is to be criticized by showing either that it has a false preference, or that it contains an invalid deductive inference or weak inductive inference from the premises to the conclusion.<br /><br />Any objections made to an argument by criticizing the person who made the argument represents the logical fallacy <i>argumentum ad hominem</i>.<br /><br />It is a type of demagoguery used by people who are more interested in scoring rhetorical points than in determining the actual quality of the argument used in a debate.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-67808456232000278172009-12-31T09:33:35.093-07:002009-12-31T09:33:35.093-07:00^ Even if Alonzo had said record of dishonesty (wh...^ Even if Alonzo had said record of dishonesty (which I don't see any reason to think is the case), does that justify John Doe's disrespect? I've always been told that two wrongs don't make a right.SS400https://www.blogger.com/profile/17307796666410840170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-81551876076097749002009-12-31T08:33:49.025-07:002009-12-31T08:33:49.025-07:00Might I suggest that John's not treating Alonz...Might I suggest that John's not treating Alonzo's arguments with respect because he knows Alonzo has a proven record of dishonesty?Calvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08732753126859648649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-65454567130037557742009-12-31T07:29:04.188-07:002009-12-31T07:29:04.188-07:00Alonzo, it's obvious at this point that John D...Alonzo, it's obvious at this point that John Doe is a troll and he is uninterested in actually exchanging ideas in any meaningful way. Don't feed the troll.Burt Likkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16060980744675990412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-17307810084723389342009-12-31T07:24:30.215-07:002009-12-31T07:24:30.215-07:00Your poor widdle peelings trump everybody else'...<i>Your poor widdle peelings trump everybody else's desires.</i><br /><br />I have not talked about feelings.<br /><br />I have talked about a cultural barrier that filters atheists and others who do not support 'one nation under God' from holding public office.<br /><br />Your attempt to reframe the issue is fundamentally dishonest - displaying an overall lack of interest in truth that is substantially comaparable to your overall lack of interest in justice or fairness.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-90197891225264310092009-12-31T06:53:51.949-07:002009-12-31T06:53:51.949-07:00Oh, LOOK! Now Alonzo's little pet peeve is the...Oh, LOOK! Now Alonzo's little pet peeve is the equivalent of segregation. Hard to argue with that--you win. No, wait, except it isn't even close. <br /><br />I have no problems with "One nation, under God" because if you ungodly heathen were in the vast majority you would cram your beliefs down my throat, too. Why do I say that? Because when in a very small minority, you still want what makes you feel uncomfortable to be the principal that all of the rest of us have to cater to. Your poor widdle peelings trump everybody else's desires. Sorry your feelings are hurt, but deal with it, is all I'm saying. Your post sounded like it was written by a little juvenile to this jaded old man.John Doehttp://maaadddog.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-77529027540944348772009-12-31T05:37:11.238-07:002009-12-31T05:37:11.238-07:00In my high school, nobody even knows what they'...In my high school, nobody even knows what they're saying when they repeat the pledge every morning. They couldn't care less about any of it because they don't take it seriously. It doesn't make a difference whether or not "under God" is there for them. But this, I think, is largely because there's not much atheist intolerance where I live. If I lived in, say, Texas or Kentucky, where people care about that sort of thing, I can see why this would be a huge problem. On principle, I agree wholeheartedly that "under God" is something that shouldn't be there.SS400https://www.blogger.com/profile/17307796666410840170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-79320418000284880722009-12-30T21:45:58.452-07:002009-12-30T21:45:58.452-07:00The John Doe concept of morality.
"Quit you ...The John Doe concept of morality.<br /><br />"Quit you wining and get to the back of the bus, boy. Life isn't fair. Get used to it."Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-54227813118680079752009-12-30T21:36:17.422-07:002009-12-30T21:36:17.422-07:00By that logic, John, there should be no Jewish peo...By that logic, John, there should be no Jewish people in office, no Black people in office, and no homosexuals in office. But there are people of each minority group who have gained high public office (Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, and Barney Frank, respectively).<br /><br />I'm okay with you saying that this is "one nation, under God" if that's how you feel. All I ask is that you not <b><i>compel</i></b> me to say it, too. In your mind does that make me a "dick" ineligible for your support for public office.Burt Likkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16060980744675990412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-12272705908889971172009-12-30T19:52:19.399-07:002009-12-30T19:52:19.399-07:00Whiiiine. Alonzo reminds me of the scene in "...Whiiiine. Alonzo reminds me of the scene in "Platoon" where Sgt. Barnes talks about Sgt. Elias: "There's the way things ought to be, and the way things are." Life isn't "fair." Those in the minority aren't treated "fairly." You can accept that reality, and deal with it, or you can be an agitator and get kicked to curb. To get elected, you need a majority. You already got two strikes against you being an atheist. You can take a third strike, by asserting all kinds of whiney so-called rights, such as the right not to have us call this "One Nation, Under God", or you can let it slide off your back like water off a duck. I think I can see how you are gonna handle it. Good luck wid dat. <br /><br />I wouldn't rule out voting for an atheist, but I would rule out somebody who is a dick and fights battles that aren't worth fighting.John Doehttp://maaadddog.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-9109551437730879072009-12-30T18:15:41.512-07:002009-12-30T18:15:41.512-07:00You see "under God" as being part of a l...<i>You see "under God" as being part of a list of equally equated descriptions, and I see it more as a side comment.</i><br /><br />There is absolutely nothing in Pledge to indicate that 'under God' is to be taken in any way different than 'indivisible' or 'with liberty and justice for all'.<br /><br />One could make just as much sense in saying that 'with liberty' is 'nothing but a side comment' that does not in any way attempt to denigrate tyranny or cast it in an unfavorable light.<br /><br />Once could say it, but it would be nonsense.<br /><br /><i> I suspect that we may not ever agree because we are simply reading the statement differently.</i><br /><br />It does not matter how you or I read it. It matters the attitudes that it plants in others - particularly young children.<br /><br />Tell me that a kid in grade school is supposed to hear the Pledge of Allegiance and say, "Oh, yes, there is a clear and obvious difference between what the Pledge says about those who do not believe in God, and what it says about those who would rebel like the South did in the civil war, or establish tyranny, or treat others unjustly."<br /><br />Again, the suggestion is absurd.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-73859296103472135832009-12-30T17:28:33.103-07:002009-12-30T17:28:33.103-07:00Just to be clear, I was in no way implying that th...<i>Just to be clear, I was in no way implying that the Nobel committee does favor Jews</i>.<br /><br />I doubt anyone took it that way. :)<br /><br />This is illustrative of the point though. You said something which you felt might be mistaken by someone as a racist statement, and quickly clarified that's not how you meant it. But when something is said that is very easily seen (sometimes correctly) as anti-atheist, people are quick to say "stop whining" instead of "that's not how I meant it".<br /><br />I would certainly be much less critical of the pledge if they added the line "Just to be clear, we are in no way implying that the atheists are un-american" to it.Eneasznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-45138772718884393702009-12-30T16:15:02.110-07:002009-12-30T16:15:02.110-07:00Just to be clear, I was in no way implying that th...Just to be clear, I was in no way implying that the Nobel committee does favor Jews.profenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-91869483852434877592009-12-30T16:14:00.508-07:002009-12-30T16:14:00.508-07:00Ah, Alonzo, I think I've identified where we t...Ah, Alonzo, I think I've identified where we truly disagree. You see "under God" as being part of a list of equally equated descriptions, and I see it more as a side comment. I suspect that we may not ever agree because we are simply reading the statement differently.<br /><br />I see "under God" as being something along the lines of "a great nation". Sort of like saying, "one nation with God on its side, that is indivisible with liberty and justice for all. This would mean that the pledge identifies three unamericanisms, while mentioning that we are all under God.<br /><br /><i>"Profe said:"Also please consider that Athiests, as a group, could have a tendancy to not want to run in public office. The fact that there are so few of them in office is not proof that it is made hard for them to get in."<br /><br />My first response was what an incredibly poor argument. Still it is worth addressing, I suppose.<br /><br />As for data well in the UK over 110 MPs (more than 1/6 of all MPs) are members of the All Party Parliamentary Humanist Group <br /><br />Indeed why on earth should the feature of having atheism as part of one's world view make one less inclined to participate ion the democratic process, no reason that I can think of.<br /><br />Further history has shown many of the most important innovations that have given us our modern liberal democracies were often originally developed by such thinkers."</i><br /><br />As for this, I simply meant that the absence of Athiests is not <i>proof</i> that they are being held back from office. I think there is certainly other evidence that (you could argue) proves this, but the absence of Athiests from official positions does not.<br /><br />There are a disproportional number of Jewish Nobel Prize winners. Is this because they have a bias towards Jews? Could be, but it is certainly not proof.Profenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-34869269416835655542009-12-30T13:11:08.204-07:002009-12-30T13:11:08.204-07:00Of course, while we're discussing the Pledge o...Of course, while we're discussing the Pledge of Allegiance it is well to note two historical items:<br /><br />1. The pledge was created by a flag salesman to boost sales of American flags.<br />2. The words "under God" were added in the 1950s, during the Red Scare era, presumably to differentiate our idolatrous love of a flag from the godless communists' love of collective farms.Cecil Bothwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17097875486281839226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-85425525663821884892009-12-30T11:59:27.355-07:002009-12-30T11:59:27.355-07:00Profe said:"Also please consider that Athiest...Profe said:"Also please consider that Athiests, as a group, could have a tendancy to not want to run in public office. The fact that there are so few of them in office is not proof that it is made hard for them to get in."<br /><br />My first response was what an incredibly poor argument. Still it is worth addressing, I suppose.<br /><br />As for data well in the UK over 110 MPs (more than 1/6 of all MPs) are members of the <a href="http://www.humanism.org.uk/about/apphg" rel="nofollow">All Party Parliamentary Humanist Group</a> <br /><br />Indeed why on earth should the feature of having atheism as part of one's world view make one less inclined to participate ion the democratic process, no reason that I can think of.<br /><br />Further history has shown many of the most important innovations that have given us our modern liberal democracies were often originally developed by such thinkers.<br /><br />'nuff saidMartin Freedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16952072422175870627noreply@blogger.com