tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post5778635189515680824..comments2023-10-24T04:29:23.693-06:00Comments on Atheist Ethicist: Smoking, Obesity, Responsibility, and ChoiceAlonzo Fyfehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-72059212536735890492011-11-04T22:18:19.992-06:002011-11-04T22:18:19.992-06:00mojo.rhythm: you are giving an argument for compat...mojo.rhythm: you are giving an argument for compatibilism that Daniel Dennett gives. The problem is one of semantics. The "free will" that compatibilists (like me & Dennett) claim exists is not the same "free will" that most people claim exists. Most people think that "free will" means someone could have "willed" (chosen) differently given the same state of the universe (including their brain states). This is false. If we rewind the universe and play it back, a person will make the exact same choices (determinism is true). There may be times that something different happens, but if so the only thing that could account for that would be quantum randomness (not something that was "willed" or "chosen"; random events are not what people mean by "free will"). There is no "will" that is free from the laws of the universe. All "wills", like every other event in the universe, are determined by the physical laws and current state of the universe.<br /><br />And… as Alonzo is arguing… this is a good thing. If a person could "will" something independently from the state of their brain and the laws of the universe, then our moral "tools" (praise, condemnation, reward, punishment) would not work, and the entire practice of morality would be worthless.kipkoanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06965641339336813677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-26944318515239712152011-11-03T02:39:55.153-06:002011-11-03T02:39:55.153-06:00determinism does = inevitable
you argument seems t...<i>determinism does = inevitable<br />you argument seems to imply that the future will be inevitabley rosy and happy but i dont see how it argues for a break between determinism and inevitability.</i><br /><br />There is a difference between saying:<br /><br />1: <b>If determinism is true, what will happen will happen.</b><br /><br />and<br /><br />2: <b>If determinism is true, the future cannot be avoided.</b><br /><br />(1) Is a tautology. And it also applies for indeterminism. Even if your choices ultimately emanate from a non-material aspect of your being, what will happen will still happen.<br /><br />(2) actually has non-trivial implications, but it is false. Like I said before, we have evolved to be avoiders. Our brains are, more or less, future simulators, causing us to behave in ways that try to avoid certain futures, and realise other ones.<br /><br />"<b>The future is inevitable</b>" presupposes something an agent wants to avoid, something bad. If it was something good, the equivalent sentence would be: "<b>If determinism is true, the future cannot be realised--it is unreachable</b>." Yet everyone can see how nonsensical that is. "The" future is not unreachable, <i>some</i> futures are. Our brains cause us to seek after those futures that are desirable, and shun those we are averse to.<br /><br />As to Alonzo's claim that indeterminism abrogates moral culpability, I'm right with him on that one.<br /><br />Imagine two universes. Both literally identical in every single way to one another. In one universe, I am sitting at my computer, typing on my keyboard. In the other universe, instead I decide to get up, jump in my car, start driving, and immediately crash head-first into a tree.<br /><br />Remember: both universes are exactly the same. I have exactly the same brain, with the same beliefs, desires, wishes, goals, virtues, vices, qualities, and attitudes. Yet, in the second universe, I crash my car into a tree.<br /><br />How can I be blamed for it? I didn't have a desire to get in my car; I had no desire to start driving; I believed that if I drove into a tree it would be a horrible thing, so why? If it is something that is totally divorced from my beliefs, desires and intentions, blaming me would make as much sense as blaming the child with Tourettes for swearing at his mother. This esoteric "free-will" force controls me. Ironically, it <i>saps</i> me of my free will!mojo.rhythmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14901306439675127615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-83523973268537504622011-11-02T18:03:40.637-06:002011-11-02T18:03:40.637-06:00@ mojo
determinism does = inevitable
you argument...@ mojo<br /><br />determinism does = inevitable<br />you argument seems to imply that the future will be inevitabley rosy and happy but i dont see how it argues for a break between determinism and inevitability.<br /><br />@ alonzo<br /><br />why would desirism fall apart with free will? if one assumes free will is somehow verified i don't see how that would negatively affect desirismKristopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08544209777124068097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-33913770331839851172011-11-02T16:29:47.316-06:002011-11-02T16:29:47.316-06:00People assume that if determinism is true, the fut...People assume that <b>if determinism is true, the future is inevitable</b>. That is not true; we are evolved to avoid certain futures. If you throw a brick at my head, I duck. I am avoiding a future in which a brick is lodged in my brain.<br /><br />Moreover, you "avoid" the bad, and "what" the good? You go after it, you gather it, you seize it, you pursue it, you catch it.<br /><br />Now rephrase the phrase: <b>if determinism is true, the future is un-seizable</b>.<br /><br />Now you can see the absurdity of it. We are evolved to avoid certain futures and go after other ones.mojo.rhythmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14901306439675127615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-6379750414064344502011-11-02T10:20:45.422-06:002011-11-02T10:20:45.422-06:00Without determination nothing gets done.Without determination nothing gets done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-87206485136771757672011-11-02T10:02:30.326-06:002011-11-02T10:02:30.326-06:00I suspect like most things in reality Free Will do...I suspect like most things in reality Free Will doesn’t fall into pure binary states of yes or no – it exists in a continuum. Just because Free Will does not exist in a hypothetical vacuum separate of physical realities and constraints, doesn’t mean it isn’t there. I think the word ‘Free’ is what really pushes people’s buttons. I think there is little doubt that ‘Will’ exists. It exists in the context of human bodies, not all being exactly equal, and the physical circumstances, also not being equal. Because the nature of human consciousness and Will is a function of biological physiology that physically changes in its adaptation to stimulus, it isn’t free of these constraints. There is very little doubt that humans have the potential to exert Will to change their existence in terms of eating, smoking and exercise. However, each of these have important physical mappings in our brains. So, do humans have ‘completel Free Will’ to act without the constraints of their brains? Of course not. <br /><br />However, it is a far cry to say that just because someone is incapable of being fully responsible for their decisions and life style, that anyone else is there for compelled to be responsible.Cashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02548646152400066683noreply@blogger.com