tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post5043036892892645539..comments2023-10-24T04:29:23.693-06:00Comments on Atheist Ethicist: Michael Shermer: The Art of Political CompromiseAlonzo Fyfehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-39386256946726571572007-02-05T13:56:00.000-07:002007-02-05T13:56:00.000-07:00Thank you for your detailed reply and for the poll...Thank you for your detailed reply and for the polls. The second one is especially interesting, since it says a lot about the correlation between faith and tolerance. Just look at the majorities ;-))Irene Mettlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05447347647501298566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-28520755079251013782007-02-05T05:46:00.000-07:002007-02-05T05:46:00.000-07:00Irene Mettler
I do hope that you can see that "mo...<b>Irene Mettler</b><br /><br />I do hope that you can see that "most Christians" is not the same as, in your words, "There is only ONE God for all of mankind, and that everybody has the same belief system."<br /><br />By the way, your accusation is also false when applied to Sam Harris. Harris takes pains to distinguish different belief systems and acknowledges that while some tend to promote suicide bombings and other forms of murder, we can trust that devotees to other religions will not kill under any circumstances.<br /><br />I do have an objection to Harris and Dawkins (which I express in <a href="http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2006/10/my-basic-problem-with-dawkins-and.html">My Basic Problem with Dawkins and Harris</a>) that even though they distinguish between different religious beliefs, they still hold moderates morally accountable to the harms of fundamentalists because moderates give a pass to and make fundamentalism possible.<br /><br />This is not the same as saying that they all have the same beliefs. In fact, it <i>contradicts</i> such an assertion. However, I hold that it is still a problem. I stated as recently as <a href="http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2007/02/sam-harris-tone-of-political-discourse.html">the post before this one</a> my objections to the notion that that moderates share in the moral culpability of fundamentalists.<br /><br />As for what "most" Christians believe, I think that if you took a serious look at North and South America, southern Africa, and Europe, that Europe is substantially alone in its liberal interpretation of Christianity. And even in Europe, substantial minorities of Christians still hold to these traditional beliefs.<br /><br />In fact, <a href="http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/14203">a poll of European attitudes</a> towards homosexual marriage and adoption, conducted just a few months ago, show that a majority (that is, most) Europeans still oppose homosexual marriage and an even larger number (2/3) oppose homosexual adoption. I suspect that approval will be lower than average among Christians and higher than average among non-Christians.<br /><br />In <a href="http://www.thebrusselsconnection.be/tbc/upload/attachments/European%20Values%20Overall%20EN.pdf">another recent poll on European attitudes</a>, 1/3 of Europeans are opposed to abortion and to homosexuality itself (let alone marriage or adoption). Though clearly not "most" Europeans, we can still expect the percentages to be higher among European Christians (and Muslims) and lower among European non-religious, and the numbers to be higher in non-European Christian countries than in Europe.<br /><br />In all, I am comforable with my assertion about what most Christians believe.<br /><br />However, I do not share the attitude that because MOST Christians believe X that ALL Christianity is to be condemned. I have written extensivly against this form of bigotry. I, certainly, would consider it unjust for anybody to condemn me on the basis of what MOST Atheists believe, particularly when I put so much effort into arguing against those beliefs.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-42775448830498109092007-02-05T03:56:00.000-07:002007-02-05T03:56:00.000-07:00Sorry, Alonzo, but you speak of “most Christians” ...Sorry, Alonzo, but you speak of “most Christians” and that “their Jesus is somebody who would do a great deal of harm in the name of God, and doing what Jesus would do also means doing a great deal of harm in the name of God.”<br /><br />There are roughly two billion Christians on this earth, in about 9000 very different denominations – Anglicans, Protestants, Roman Catholics, Greek Catholics, Orthodox, Pentecostals, Methodists, Quakers, etc., etc. (http://worldchristiandatabase.org). Orthodox Catholics and Quakers, for example, don’t have much in common.<br /><br />Now, how many of these two billion people are your “most Christians” who are threats to others? 75 %? 80 %? 90 %? Are they Quakers, Greek Catholics, Hutterers, Ukrainian Catholics, Amish, Roman Catholics, Anglicans? Are they from the United States, Russia, Mexico, the Netherlands, Swaziland?Irene Mettlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05447347647501298566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-42855647073229797232007-02-04T18:59:00.000-07:002007-02-04T18:59:00.000-07:00Irene Mettler
Your comments are puzzling. I have ...<b>Irene Mettler</b><br /><br />Your comments are puzzling. I have several paragraphs in this post specifying that different concepts of God exist, and I have no objections to some of them.<br /><br />I explicitly deny that everybody has the same belief system, and repeatedly stress that my objection only applies to those whose belief system cause them to be a threat to others. I am more than happy to ally with those whose God tells them to actually <i>help</i> others.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-18290849380954718262007-02-04T18:25:00.000-07:002007-02-04T18:25:00.000-07:00Yes, you are absolutely right. The problem is that...Yes, you are absolutely right. The problem is that we don't talk about the same God, and that's why we all become so angry. Dawkins' God is not my God, and my God is not the God of a Hopi or that of a Hindu or a Bantu.<br /><br />My big, big problem with Dawkins and Harris, and in this case with Alonzo, is that they generalize. They claim that there is only ONE God for all of mankind, and that everybody has the same belief system.<br />I don't mind if they think that God is an old man with a beard, but that's the atheists' view of God, not mine, and I don't want to be bashed anymore for something I don't even believe in. <br />But Dawkins and Harris and Dennett and Weinberg are ubiquitous. Whenever I open a newspaper I read that I'm an idiot because I believe in God.<br /><br />Dawkins wrote in "The God Delusion" that everybody who claims to believe in another God than the one he invented in the premise of his book commits "high treason" (his words!).<br />What kind of argument is this?<br /><br />It seems that atheists don't understand that THE religion does not exist. Or as we say in Vienna, they talk about religion like a blind man would talk about color.Irene Mettlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05447347647501298566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-53846645772407505412007-02-04T14:50:00.000-07:002007-02-04T14:50:00.000-07:00Irene responded to Alonzo: "it is THEIR (and your)...Irene responded to Alonzo: "it is THEIR (and your) God and therefore you think it must the God of the rest of mankind as well."<br /><br />Irene, is your view of God so subjective that he is different for each of us?<br /><br />Personally, I find such a philosophical approach to God very much to my liking. It eliminates religions human authority and places religion in its proper context as a relationship between each individual and his God.<br /><br />Of course, this view of religion is much different than that described Alonzo. Alonzo was quite clear to qualify religion, which he spoke of, as being under the rule of authority ... and implied that this authority was literally manifested in holy texts such as the Bible and Koran.<br /><br />While I find the inference that religion is subjective to my liking, I also find Alonzo's words both thought provoking and insightful.<br /><br />I find both his opinion and yours to my liking because you are each using the same word, "religion", to describe two different things ... apples and oranges, if you will.bpabbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17047791198702983998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-49644392353330020272007-02-04T10:15:00.000-07:002007-02-04T10:15:00.000-07:00I live in Austria, a country with about 95 % Catho...I live in Austria, a country with about 95 % Catholics. We do not oppose homosexual marriage, we do not block stem cell research, we do not criminalize abortion, we do not require schools to teach children that all true patriots pledge allegiance to God, we are not suicide bombers, we do not execute those who dare to teach anything other than the holy text and for such a small country we have quite a few Nobel Prize winners. The father of genetics, Gregor Mendel, was an Austrian monk.<br />What does this say about your “obvious answer”?<br /><br />Dawkins, Harris etc. are embarrassingly narrow-minded and prejudiced in their idea about “God” – it is THEIR (and your) God and therefore you think it must the God of the rest of mankind as well. <br />Dawkins even went so far as to say that everybody who doesn’t believe in the God that he had defined in the first chapter of “The God Delusion” doesn’t believe in God at all.Irene Mettlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05447347647501298566noreply@blogger.com