tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post2293805589560884817..comments2023-10-24T04:29:23.693-06:00Comments on Atheist Ethicist: Partial ValuesAlonzo Fyfehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-4415226998466508412007-08-15T05:35:00.000-06:002007-08-15T05:35:00.000-06:00All people (even me) are motivated by desires. Bel...All people (even me) are motivated by desires. Beliefs and rationality only choose to pick out the means to those ends. Desires pick out the ends.<BR/><BR/>The oddity of a 'Spock' who devotes himself purely to logic is that he would have no reason to act. For him to act, he must identify an end, and for every end identified he must <I>care</I> about that end in order to have a reason to realize it. Otherwise, no end survives the shrug test. (The 'So what?' test.)<BR/><BR/>I am going to leave it to professions to discuss how these forces work. I think that there is enough evidence of them working - from the establishment of roles in a pride of lions or a pack of wolves, to cultural differences among humans, to show that they do work. Even primative humans would have recognized the value (in terms of peace, security, and cooperation) of promoting useful desires in others and inhibiting dangerous desires.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-76428338476624623522007-08-15T00:00:00.000-06:002007-08-15T00:00:00.000-06:00There are also therapists that like to invoke god(...There are also therapists that like to invoke god(s) and even go so far as to prescribe seances and exorcisms.. as you say, research along these lines would be nice. My fear is that most research doesn't approach things from a desire utilitarian perspective but instead rely solely upon traditional concepts of illness and mental disease. <BR/><BR/>I see this as quite similar to the issue of relying on doctors to properly diagnose and prescribe for suicidal individuals - tending to focus on interventions of chemicals and discussions of their ego instead of directly weighing their scenario and conflicts/confusions in the various desires within their life. <BR/><BR/>At least, I've never heard of such a perspective ever being mentioned in any medical article. Perhaps we're breaking new medical ground in terms of research potential.. although I'd love to be proven wrong and see some studies that address these topics - to confirm or deny their usefulness.Uber Miguelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17903598951047377349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-82317037565588044192007-08-14T23:20:00.000-06:002007-08-14T23:20:00.000-06:00Refering to how condemnation, praise, and ridicule...Refering to how condemnation, praise, and ridicule change desires, Martino said: <BR/><BR/>"Presumably the recipient experiences something like remorse, regret, guilt, shame or embarrassment and as a result of one or more of these modifies their desires-as-ends."<BR/><BR/>This does indeed seem to underly what Alonzo argues. The negative emotions induced by ridicule and condemnation serve to weaken desires while the positive emotions that arise from praise strengthen desires. If not this, I'd like to hear what it is about condemnation etc. that influence desires.<BR/><BR/>The emotional explanation makes sense to me. In fact, I think all people, even Alonzo, the most rational person I know, are mostly motivated by emotions and what I guess would be called "gut" feelings.<BR/><BR/>However, I would argue that information gained from observation, education, real life experiences, reasoned analysis, etc. also has an emotional impact on us and can therefore also alter desires. I contend that the interplay of the various beliefs we hold, both conscious and subconscious, influence our emotions and desires.<BR/><BR/>Condemnation is a form of information. It, for example, is information that "Jenny does not approve of what I'm doing." Jenny's disapproval can certainly have an emotional impact, and affect our desires. <BR/><BR/>But why couldn't this information have similar effects: "Jenny has proven to me that what I'm doing is wrong."?<BR/><BR/>On a slightly different note, do therapists use condemnation, ridicule, and praise to help their clients change their behaviors? Perhaps to some degree, but I do not think these are the main tools they employ.<BR/><BR/>Finally, surely there has been research into what methods work to truly change people, just as there is research about how to change the behavior of lab rats. So far, this has all been a lot of armchair reasoning, which is fine, but how does it square with research? Is anyone aware of such research?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-29759624089830720002007-08-14T21:53:00.000-06:002007-08-14T21:53:00.000-06:00Alonzo,Nice argument, but your position about chan...Alonzo,<BR/><BR/>Nice argument, but your position about changing desires by praise and condemnation is just as subject to it. A child has a desire to do something you consider bad, so you condemn him and he stops showing that desire. You may say you have changed his desire, but you can just as easily say he had a stronger desire not to be condemned and you only made him aware that if he did that he would be condemned. Therefore he acted on his stronger desire. You did not change his desires at all.<BR/>Even if he does not do the bad behavior when you are not around, that is no proof, since he could still be motivated by the fear of your condemnation. You applied the condemnation to an act, but you did not create or change and desire-as-end, only a desire as means.<BR/>You can’t have it both ways. You can’t just say “well if it was changed by facts and reason, it wasn’t a desire-as-end, but if it was changed by praise and condemnation, it is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-14167485209382043182007-08-14T15:24:00.000-06:002007-08-14T15:24:00.000-06:00John did not have a desire-as-end to have a dinner...John did not have a desire-as-end to have a dinner with Mary at Chez Pierre.<BR/><BR/>John had a desire-as-end to have a romantic dinner in a quiet and reasonably priced restaurant with a beautiful woman who does not hate men.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, he (wrongly) believed that this dinner with Mary at Chez Pierre would be a romantic dinner in a quiet and reasonably priced restaurant with a beautiful woman who does not hate men.<BR/><BR/>You corrected his beliefs.<BR/><BR/>You did not correct, or even change, his desires-as-ends.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-33288536481678115012007-08-14T14:03:00.000-06:002007-08-14T14:03:00.000-06:00>> After John considers the new facts and their co...>> After John considers the new facts and their combined impact on his many desires, he no longer has a desire-as-end to have dinner with Mary at Chez Pierre.<BR/>Unless you dispute that the dinner desire was a desire-as-end, <<<BR/><BR/>I don't wish to talk for Alonzo, but as I understand it, I believe this would be the exact dispute. "To have dinner with Mary at Chez Pierre" sounds very much like a desire-as-means. If I were forced to guess, I'd guess that the true desire-as-ends is to form a satisfying relationship with desirable member of the opposite sex. And this dinner with Mary at Chez Pierre is but one of the means among many to eventually achieve that end.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-87126182706296935952007-08-14T13:50:00.000-06:002007-08-14T13:50:00.000-06:00Alonzo,As I see it:1) John had a desire-as-end to ...Alonzo,<BR/><BR/>As I see it:<BR/>1) John had a desire-as-end to have a dinner with Mary at Chez Pierre.<BR/>2) I provided John with facts and reasoning that caused him to change his beliefs about Mary and Chez Pierre. (Whether I mentioned other desires of his or not relating to these beliefs is not really relevant. I am not interested in changing those desires.)<BR/>3) After John considers the new facts and their combined impact on his many desires, he no longer has a desire-as-end to have dinner with Mary at Chez Pierre.<BR/>Unless you dispute that the dinner desire was a desire-as-end, or that his ceasing to have this desire does not constitute changing a desire-as-end, then I have shown it is possible to change a desire as end through changing beliefs.<BR/>I am not arguing that these beliefs are unrelated to his other desires. Nor am I saying beliefs alone have motivational power. But I am saying virtually all desires beyond those relating to internal states of satisfaction or pain are combinations of other desires and beliefs. And one generally has a better chance of changing the related beliefs leading to a particular desire through facts and reasoning than through the crude tools of operant conditioning.<BR/>Most research shows punishment (condemnation, ridicule, or physical punishment) is not a particularly effective form of behavior modification. Why? Because there are so many other responses to it than the one you wish. Agression, denial, counterattack, are very common. If the tool you are using produces more bad consequences than good ones, it’s time to find a better tool.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-53496247739854985812007-08-14T05:43:00.000-06:002007-08-14T05:43:00.000-06:00Here may not be the specific post this question is...Here may not be the specific post this question is for but I think it is relevant to much of the discussion of the last few days.<BR/><BR/>For the purposes of this question, lets us grant that condemnation, ridicule and punishment <B>are effective</B> in altering malleable desires in the recipient. That is let us focus on where it actually has worked. Now the question is <B>how</B> does this work?<BR/><BR/>Presumably the recipient experiences something like remorse, regret, guilt, shame or embarrassment and as a result of one or more of these modifies their desires-as-ends? <BR/>If so how do these emotions map to belief and desire? First they all appear to be in the class of negative desires, the prototypical example being fear. Fears are alleviated or not. Fear is a propositional attitude to keep or make the proposition false. This is a form of desire negated and trivially reducible to desire. I hope I have this correct.<BR/><BR/>The issue with my list of emotions above is that they are not only negative desires but backward looking. In a forum someone asked me<BR/><BR/><I>To take the Sartrean example if I am aware of being seen spying through a keyhole and I experience shame what exactly is it that I desire?</I><BR/><BR/>My answer that I am not entirely happy with was: "In this case shame is an emotion or feeling that comprises a desire and a belief. The belief, B, is that certain of one's actions were blameworthy and the desire, D, is for one's actions not to be blameworthy. To expand on example the initial belief is of the form that one has been apparently (A) caught (C) spying (S) for some purpose (P). (A) allows for the possibility that one was mistaken but one can feel shame due to false beliefs. There are many variants of what B could be, one is that C is blameworthy (and not S or P). Many others can be derived of course. Regardless B is conjoined with D to generate the feeling of shame."<BR/><BR/>Over to you :-)Martin Freedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16952072422175870627noreply@blogger.com