tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post1755284100593868766..comments2023-10-24T04:29:23.693-06:00Comments on Atheist Ethicist: Altering Desires as EndsAlonzo Fyfehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-28924972352990431282007-08-13T14:52:00.000-06:002007-08-13T14:52:00.000-06:00Atheist Observer - You seem to saying that condemn...Atheist Observer - You seem to saying that condemnation from a random stranger won't make any difference to you, and most people would probably agree. I'm more interested in what your reaction would be if it was persons very close to you condemning you. Your spouse, your siblings, your friends, your co-workers. Your immediate peer-group, who's opinions and esteem you value. I think condemnation from these sources would be much more likely to affect you. If almost everyone who you held dear were to harshly critisize you for (in example) fraternizing with someone of a different race, view you as less worthy as a human, as someone who is poisening the purity of your own race.... I would think that your desire to fraternize with different races would be greatly reduced.<BR/><BR/>I think a quick examination of history bears this out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-88648976729232036572007-08-13T13:50:00.000-06:002007-08-13T13:50:00.000-06:00Martino,It is my belief that desires-as-ends are r...Martino,<BR/><BR/>It is my belief that desires-as-ends are rarely, if ever changed in adults by praise or condemnation. I can’t imagine any desire of yours I could change by saying, “Martino’s desire for X is horrible. Martino’s desire for X is horrible. Martino’s desire for X is horrible.” I’ve condemned your desire, but without some supporting reasons that might affect your beliefs, you are unlikely to change at all. Your most likely reaction is just to think I’m ignorant or mean.<BR/>I see that as counter-productive because it makes you less likely to listen to any reasoned arguments I might have.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-21369553994598100082007-08-13T12:55:00.000-06:002007-08-13T12:55:00.000-06:00Atheist ObserverThe dinner might be a means, but i...Atheist Observer<BR/><I>The dinner might be a means, but it could also be an end. Perhaps John doesn't want a long term relationship, he just wants that evening.</I> <BR/><BR/>In which case pursue option b) then a). However this example has an oddness which does not make look like a prototypical or stereotypical exemplar to discuss this point.<BR/><BR/>The question, either way, is that once one has dealt with the associated beliefs involved succesfully or not, what is left to deal with the desires apart from praise, adulation, reward and condemnation, ridicule and punishment?Martin Freedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16952072422175870627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-50817155053819457952007-08-13T08:10:00.000-06:002007-08-13T08:10:00.000-06:00Martino,The dinner might be a means, but it could ...Martino,<BR/>The dinner might be a means, but it could also be an end. Perhaps John doesn't want a long term relationship, he just wants that evening.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-4909469864118884022007-08-13T03:25:00.000-06:002007-08-13T03:25:00.000-06:00Atheist Observer:[1]John believes Mary is a beauti...Atheist Observer:<BR/><I>[1]John believes Mary is a beautiful, sexy woman.<BR/>[2]John believes Chez Pierre is a good place for a romantic dinner.<BR/>[3]John believes he enjoys romantic dinners with beautiful, sexy women.<BR/>[4]John has a desire-as-ends to have a romantic dinner with Mary at Chez Pierre.</I><BR/><BR/>Surely [4] is not a desire-as-ends but as <B>desire-as-means</B>. Presumably there is an unstated desire-as-ends here such as John desires Mary romantically or equivalent. For example, a friend <B>who does want John to be involved with Mary</B> might criticize belief [2] and suggest a better place for romance. If John was convinced his desire-as-means would change but his desire-as-ends would not.<BR/><BR/>(The example is peculiar for its point but not uncommon of course. It implies an old story we are all probably familiar with. We have all had friends who sought or were involved with someone we know would be a disaster for them (or have been that person ourselves). We have all reasoned with them and mostly this does not work becuase this is a desire-as-ends.)<BR/><BR/>So your means to change [4] is misplaced since this is a desire-as-means.<BR/> <BR/>Hence you would choose b) in your list of options<BR/><I>a) try to condemn, embarrass, or humiliate him about it.<BR/>b) Reason with him and explain Mary hates men, can’t stand French food, and Chez Pierre is actually noisy, crowded, and ridiculously overpriced.</I>Martin Freedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16952072422175870627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-23270542533771509782007-08-12T22:25:00.000-06:002007-08-12T22:25:00.000-06:00Alonzo,How about this:John believes Mary is a beau...Alonzo,<BR/><BR/>How about this:<BR/><BR/>John believes Mary is a beautiful, sexy woman.<BR/>John believes Chez Pierre is a good place for a romantic dinner.<BR/>John believes he enjoys romantic dinners with beautiful, sexy women.<BR/>John has a desire-as-ends to have a romantic dinner with Mary at Chez Pierre.<BR/><BR/>If you wanted to change John’s desire as ends for this dinner would you:<BR/>a) try to condemn, embarrass, or humiliate him about it.<BR/>b) Reason with him and explain Mary hates men, can’t stand French food, and Chez Pierre is actually noisy, crowded, and ridiculously overpriced.<BR/><BR/>My point is that operant conditioning may work in rats, chickens, and dogs, and to some degree in small children, but as a method to change desires as ends in adults it effectiveness is marginal at best. “Clockwork Orange” was just a movie. <BR/><BR/>Just how much condemnation and ridicule would it take to make you change your desire to leave the world a better place? Or do you consider that desire just a means?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-77222611755587634392007-08-11T23:26:00.000-06:002007-08-11T23:26:00.000-06:00"If somebody wants to assert that a set of beliefs..."<I>If somebody wants to assert that a set of beliefs can entail or imply a desires-as-end in such a way that having the former but not the latter is incoherent, I simply would like to see that argument.</I>"<BR/><BR/>What about my comment <A HREF="http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2007/08/beliefs-and-values.html#comment-1041687657434289675" REL="nofollow">right here</A>?Richard Y Chappellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16725218276285291235noreply@blogger.com