tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post1573526450549438905..comments2023-10-24T04:29:23.693-06:00Comments on Atheist Ethicist: Bigotry Deserves No AllegianceAlonzo Fyfehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-11270684288791492242008-08-20T15:04:00.000-06:002008-08-20T15:04:00.000-06:00Thanks, Eneasz! That's pretty much what I'm doing...Thanks, Eneasz! That's pretty much what I'm doing now. If I ever do become a judge, I'll ask my clerk to omit the "under God" portion of the oath. Until then I haven't found a better feasible alternative than putting up with it.Burt Likkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16060980744675990412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-67453805789636095262008-08-20T13:32:00.000-06:002008-08-20T13:32:00.000-06:00Transplanted Lawyer -Since you asked for comments ...Transplanted Lawyer -<BR/><BR/>Since you asked for comments from readers, I suggest taking the route in which you can do the most good.<BR/><BR/>As a layman, it is my assumption that judges have a lot more power to help (or hinder) society than do lawyers who are constantly being harrassed by clerks. As such, I assume you could do more good as a judge, even if that means a number of years having to accept that oath in silence.<BR/><BR/>Also, depending on where you live, the consequences might not be quite so dire. I'm an out atheist, more or less. I don't bring it up (for example if I was a lawyer I wouldn't complain about the oath), but I don't hide it either so if it comes up in casual conversation I tell people I don't believe in any gods. If they ask me if certain things bother me (like the pledge) I say, yeah, of course, they'd bother you too if you were me. Living in Denver, I haven't recieved any blowback. People just accept it without any problems.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure how it affects my career... I'm at a low enough level that it doesn't matter right now. If I move up it might become a problem. However I don't really have any aspiration to be a VP or CFO, so that's not nearly as much of a burden for me. :( I'm sorry you have to deal with something like this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-17347644907897512172008-08-19T07:09:00.000-06:002008-08-19T07:09:00.000-06:00Which is exactly the massage that the theocrats wa...<I>Which is exactly the massage that the theocrats want to give.</I><BR/><BR/>I know it's a typo, but in an otherwise excellent post, it rubs me the wrong way!dbonfittohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08787420987976232701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-33672405613731935882008-08-18T20:35:00.000-06:002008-08-18T20:35:00.000-06:00You can make a differeneceAtheists attend God and ...You can make a differenece<BR/><BR/><B>Atheists attend God and Country Day at Wilson Co. Fair</B><BR/><BR/>Church members and atheists alike attended God and Country Day at the Wilson County Fair Sunday.<BR/><BR/>For years the fair has offered a $2 discount to church members.<BR/><BR/>This year, the rules changed after a group of atheists contacted fair officials saying the discount is unfair. <BR/><BR/>"The $2 discount only to Christians is a discriminatory practice. You might as well put only white people get a discount today," expressed Blair Scott with the National American Atheists affiliate. <BR/><BR/>Fair officials compromised and agreed to accept printouts from all organizations, including atheists. <BR/><BR/>About a dozen atheists came to the fair on Sunday wearing shirts to identify their group.justintemplerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17565418621431239539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-34327200494914986202008-08-18T18:12:00.000-06:002008-08-18T18:12:00.000-06:00I face a similar problem every day in my work. Co...I face a similar problem every day in my work. Court clerks commonly administer this oath to witnesses:<BR/><BR/><I>"Do you swear that the testimony that you give to this Court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?"</I><BR/><BR/>Unless the witness answers "yes," the Court will not admit their testimony. I have no objection to the oath, other than its last four words. But where a student in a classroom who refuses to submit to the Pledge of Allegiance risks social ostracism. By objecting to the form of the oath, I risk much more than that.<BR/><BR/>I am in the position of being dependent upon the judges and clerks to get the things that I need for my clients. Obviously, the judges I appear before have a great deal of power to make my life difficult if they wish. The clerk, too, are in a position to either create or remove obstacles to for me -- by being pleasant and courteous to the clerks, I can often get inside information about the court's schedule and the latitude to correct minor mistakes in my paperwork when they inevitably arise. So I have a substantial incentive to not make waves with the clerks -- and of course, the judges who handle my client's cases have a great deal of power to make my life easy or difficult.<BR/><BR/>But the oath bothers me every time I hear it. It bothers me that the legal system relies upon a nonexistent diety to be the guarantor of truth, and that it rests upon the fear of a Bronze-age bogeyman to make people tell the truth. Anyone who does not take God seriously has no incentive to tell the truth (although a four-year prison term for perjury is, in my mind, a much more serious issue than divine disapproval!). It distresses me that my clients, my witnesses, and I must submit to God in order to be heard in the courts. Finally and most importantly, it strikes me as an Establishment of religion, which the Constitution forbids, and which the Courts should police against.<BR/><BR/>But making a protest against the practice would carry a very real price. I would no longer get favorable treatment by the clerks were I to object. I would start having my paperwork scrutinized in ways other lawyers' would not be, and be given fewer opportunities to correct problems. And if I want to pursue my career path to become a judge, gaining and keeping the political favor of these very people is critical because their opinions will count heavily for or against my appointment application with the Governor.<BR/><BR/>I'm curious as to what readers here think is the appropriate thing for me to do in terms of keeping my good reputation and also keeping to my principles.Burt Likkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16060980744675990412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-64624134965066912702008-08-18T17:09:00.000-06:002008-08-18T17:09:00.000-06:00I recently 'came out' to my inlaws, who are about...I recently 'came out' to my inlaws, who are about as hard core Repulican theo-cons as you can think of. And I felt really nervous about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-42771351579256499232008-08-18T15:53:00.000-06:002008-08-18T15:53:00.000-06:00Good post , i agree .Good post , i agree .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-33071956705767813652008-08-18T12:59:00.000-06:002008-08-18T12:59:00.000-06:00I find the whole pledge disconcerting. In a democr...I find the whole pledge disconcerting. In a democracy, the state exists for the benefit of its people, not the other way around. Forcing children pledge allegiance to the state is something you'd expect to see in places like North Korea. There's really no place in a democracy for this sort of political and religious indoctrination.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-25406961371376089152008-08-18T11:36:00.000-06:002008-08-18T11:36:00.000-06:00Our similar but not identical problem in the UK is...Our similar but not identical problem in the UK is the current government's obsession with promoting "faith schools" - Muslim and Jewish as well as Christian - which atheists and secularists keep on pointing out are bound to be socially divisive with potentially disastrous results, as they were in the case of Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately the Conservative Opposition also pay lip service to the supposed worth of "faith schools", so we shall be no better off in this respect even after the now widely longed for change of government.anticanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135207107619114891noreply@blogger.com