tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post1542481970471679533..comments2023-10-24T04:29:23.693-06:00Comments on Atheist Ethicist: Pope Benedict XVI Markets HateAlonzo Fyfehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-20484112738448169742008-12-01T19:44:00.000-07:002008-12-01T19:44:00.000-07:00"Anon, I take it that you are not one of a hated m..."Anon, I take it that you are not one of a hated minority." Alas, Eneasz, few of us are not, today. You may think atheists get the worst of it (especially if you live in the US, which I used to) but you have to admit, surely, that many believers today(especially Catholics, Evangelicals and Muslims) but perhaps not New Agers, all have to face an agressive media.<BR/><BR/><I>In today's world, whenever you stick your neck out and take a position, you are liable to have it chopped off.</I><BR/><BR/>We live in a basically relativistic society which unfortunately means that it is difficult to dialogue in a respectful manner - if you disagree with someone, you are a messenger of "hate". This is very sad. We could all learn a great deal from those who disagree with us and have good reasons to do so. Indeed apart from personal experience, the ONLY other way to know something is through the testimony and experience of others (I hope I don't throw a spanner in the works by suggesting that that is precisely what faith is).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-25800964195326245702008-11-30T01:24:00.000-07:002008-11-30T01:24:00.000-07:00So obvious, in fact, that when I see atheists make...<I>So obvious, in fact, that when I see atheists make comments about "religion" being responsible for X or Y, vehemently disagree though I may, I never take it to mean they're blaming me personally.</I><BR/><BR/>Anon, I take it that you are not one of a hated minority. You might react different if you where. It is very easy to make the quoted statement when you are not in any danger.<BR/><BR/>For example, I live in America. There is no derogatory term for "white person" here. There are some attempts, such as "cracker" or "honkey", but no white person I've ever met has thought of these as anything but a quaint term, a punchline perhaps. They cannot be a serious insult, because white people in general are in no danger of such words. On the other hand, "nigger" or "spic" are very inflamitory.<BR/><BR/>Likewise, there is no good insult for (generic) male, because men generally are in no danger from women generally. You can call a man a "prick", but it barely even registers, where "cunt" still elicits gasps frequently.<BR/><BR/>"Fag" is inflamitory. "Breeder" is barely noticed.<BR/><BR/>What do all these cases have in common? Words cannot hurt those in power. They are not in any real danger. A hated minority, on the other hand, can rightly fear words because they can (and sometimes do) turn into action by those who are among the privledged, powerful group.<BR/><BR/>So before you make a statement along the lines of <I>"These sorts of debates are about IDEAS, and the ramifications of ideas. Thinking ideas have bad ramifications is not bigotry."</I> take a moment to consider if you would be making this statement if you were a jew in 30's Europe, or a black man in 60's America, or a homosexual throughout most of history. <BR/><BR/>If you could hear someone say "[Jews/Blacks/Gays] have led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice; rather... A world with [Jews/Blacks/Gays] is a world without hope" and continue to say "I never take it to mean they're blaming me personally" without even a bit of worry or fear, then you are obviously in the opresser majority, and not the targetted minority.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-38432152424529355152008-11-28T07:54:00.000-07:002008-11-28T07:54:00.000-07:00"I strongly suggest you read the first chapter Rat..."I strongly suggest you read the first chapter Ratzinger's (B16's) "Introduction to Christianity" in which he grapples with the difficulties that atheism rightly raises."<BR/><BR/>Good suggestion. Personally, I'd find it highly refreshing for Alonzo to know what the hell he's talking about. It would be a nice change of pace.<BR/><BR/>It's obvious to me that blaming a certain worldview for something doesn't mean you're blaming every single adherent to that worldview. So obvious, in fact, that when I see atheists make comments about "religion" being responsible for X or Y, vehemently disagree though I may, I never take it to mean they're blaming me personally. These sorts of debates are about IDEAS, and the ramifications of ideas. Thinking ideas have bad ramifications is not bigotry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-77871026389869209532008-11-27T19:43:00.000-07:002008-11-27T19:43:00.000-07:00"Pope Benedict XVI is a hate-mongering bigot who i..."Pope Benedict XVI is a hate-mongering bigot who is using lies and sophistry to sell hate on the open market." Why is this not hate-mongering bigotry itself, Alonzo? Certainly it falls under your definition in the original post. Actually Pope Benedict is very sympathetic to the question of atheism per se, as the full quote (thanks, eenauk) clearly shows, which you have completely distorted. I strongly suggest you read the first chapter Ratzinger's (B16's) "Introduction to Christianity" in which he grapples with the difficulties that atheism rightly raises.<BR/><BR/>Atheism leads to "the greatest forms of cruelty etc..." only when it becomes an ideology and thereby seeks to impose a utopian and necessarily revisionist vision on humanity. The best historical example of this is obviously Marxism, hence the example. (NB because of this Marxist is essentially atheistic despite incoherent attempts of theists to hold it).<BR/><BR/>so, "He is using his lies and sophistry to try to convince people that atheists may be hated and feared – that they are dangerous people, and that as such they are to be despised" is quite wrong. If you wish I could give you some names of atheists who have been influential on the Pope's thinking, and interesting colloborations he has had with them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-58868630926139285892008-09-15T22:44:00.000-06:002008-09-15T22:44:00.000-06:00Atheism had nothing to do with anything. Stalin an...Atheism had nothing to do with anything. Stalin and Zedong were paranoid leaders who feared losing power in a one-party system where every politician was striving to overthrow them. It had nothing to do with Atheism. It's called a dictatorship ladies and gentlemen. The Pope's comments disturb me because many people follow him and listen to him intently.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11675123803537931641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-42644430641338933472007-12-02T11:41:00.000-07:002007-12-02T11:41:00.000-07:00here is what i just posted as a response to your c...here is what i just posted as a response to your comment on my blog:<BR/><BR/>alonzo - thanks for the comment. I didn't so much want to accuse you of hate-mongering as defend the pope from your accusation. I don't agree with your definition of hate-mongering. <BR/><BR/>Of course, we can and must argue against hate-mongerers and do so with the sort of clear logic that you use so well on your blog. However, in this specific case, i don't think the pope was preaching hate. He accused atheism of producing the greatest forms of cruelty and injustice (the standard "Stalin, Hitler and Mao" argument) but he is, in that, no more and no less right than those who use the "inquisition, 30-years war and al-quaeda" argument.<BR/><BR/>The Pope would be hate-mongering if he were telling us to go out and kill/lynch/spit upon atheists. Or if he were telling us they were _all_ intrinsically bad people. But he is not. He is simply saying that atheism has no moral foundation and can lead to much evil. The former argument is wrong and the latter half-way correct. But that isn't hate, it's formulating an ethical or metaphysical disagreement with, perhaps, dubious arguments.<BR/><BR/>I don't in the least agree with the pope and find him painfully conservative, retrograde and blindly stubborn. But in the end he's participating honestly in a theological/philosophical discourse. We might think his arguments are hopelessly weak, but he thinks the same of ours. He's no more bigoted than we are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-61075850118732537352007-12-02T06:36:00.000-07:002007-12-02T06:36:00.000-07:00anonymousI can't find a coherent interpretation to...<B>anonymous</B><BR/><BR/>I can't find a coherent interpretation to your sentence.<BR/><BR/>The best interpretation I can find is, "The pope is not condemning all atheists - only those who believe there is no God."Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-71995043826847281622007-12-01T22:14:00.000-07:002007-12-01T22:14:00.000-07:00The big problem is your fundamental misinterpretat...The big problem is your fundamental misinterpretation of the pope's text. He doesn't blame atheism tout court but atheists who believe that the godlessness of the universe means that humans must remake the world according to our own standards of justice, to create our own "Kingdom of Man" in place of the "Kingdom of God." Many atheists do not believe that, which is why atheism as such is insulated from this statement from B16. But I think the pope is right to say that those who do think this have brought much cruelty into the world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-36511703881938919042007-12-01T10:26:00.000-07:002007-12-01T10:26:00.000-07:00Alonzo,I take issue with two of your assertions in...Alonzo,<BR/>I take issue with two of your assertions in this post. The first is that hate mongering is not a moral crime, and the second is that some people deserve hate.<BR/>The problem I see with them is that hate is an emotion. And by definition an emotion is not a rational process. In fact strong emotions very often lead to irrational behavior.<BR/>If someone commits acts that harm others, they should be treated in ways that discourage or prevent such behavior in themselves and others, with the severity proportionate to the harm they do. This is a moral and rational response. By introducing hate into the situation, you simply make it more likely that the response will be disproportionate and irrational. You make just and moral behavior less likely.<BR/>Just as you have pointed out that the drunken or reckless driver is morally negligent, if the hate monger creates an environment of hate, his actions directly contribute to the lynching, terrorizing, or other irrational acts that hate often engenders.<BR/>Is hate a natural emotion? Yes. Do some behaviors cause us to feel this emotion? Yes. But do we benefit in the long run as a society by inciting and generating more hate, even to those we think “deserve” it? I see no evidence that the level of morality of a society can be raised by the introduction of more hate. <BR/>Hate often blinds us from a careful examination of a situation, and a reasoned analysis of causes and solutions. Hate prevents us from empathizing with others and understanding other ways of looking at events. I think hate, like other emotional reactions, evolved before animals were capable of rational thought. To encourage this most negative of emotions rather than rational thought is a moral error.Atheist Observerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04545166288013074943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-25143592998848507512007-12-01T05:19:00.000-07:002007-12-01T05:19:00.000-07:00eenaukActually, it seems to me that if you replace...<B>eenauk</B><BR/><BR/>Actually, it seems to me that if you replaced "atheism" with "religion" you would end up with a type of post that I take pains <I>not to write</I><BR/><BR/>I do not blame 'religion' for the world's ills. Nor do I hold that a false belief is sufficient to cause harm. I have said repeatedly that desire utilitarianism is compatible with a belief in God - that one can believe that a God created a universe in which the propositions of desire utilitarianism are true.<BR/><BR/>I do not blame Catholics for the words of the Pope, and I do not blame Muslims for the actions of those who want to execute the teddy-bear teacher. I direct my attention specifically to those who who are actually guilty of the wrongs that I argue have been committed.<BR/><BR/>In short, I would never argue that an "idea" has lead to the greatest form of cruelty and violations of justice. I lay the responsibility for these things squarely on the <I>people</I> that the evidence shows have been cruel and unjust.<BR/><BR/>Where I have held that true beliefs are valuable, I have also argued for a form of 'triage' - in which we recognize that some false beliefs are worse than others, and that we have reason to focus on the false beliefs where our efforts can produce the greatest benefits.<BR/><BR/>And that the proposition, "At least one God exists" is not that proposition because it carries absolutely no moral implications.<BR/><BR/>In all of the writing I have done, I may have slipped from time to time and blamed 'religion'. Yet, I hope that my writings in general would show far more consistency with the themes I identified above.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-32996818757025686842007-12-01T03:56:00.000-07:002007-12-01T03:56:00.000-07:00i think you're hating the pope overly much (and fo...i think you're hating the pope overly much (and for hating at that). here's the passage you're referring to:<BR/>"If in the face of this world’s suffering, protest against God is understandable, the claim that humanity can and must do what no God actually does or is able to do is both presumptuous and intrinsically false. It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice; rather, it is grounded in the intrinsic falsity of the claim. A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope."<BR/><BR/>he might not like atheism, and he might think it has caused lots of harm in the world, but he's not hate-mongering! If we replaced "atheism" with "religion" we'd have the makings one of your own posts!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com