tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post115206651985288276..comments2023-10-24T04:29:23.693-06:00Comments on Atheist Ethicist: A Legislator's ResponsibilitiesAlonzo Fyfehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1152150265949020652006-07-05T19:44:00.000-06:002006-07-05T19:44:00.000-06:00I think if my constituency had my sense of history...I think if my constituency had my sense of history, an understanding of the importance of protecting free speech (speech that the majority finds offensive has always required the most protection), they would vote against it. I would be able to do that in good conscience without feeling the need to actually spend the years required to fully educate them on the issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1152104908462160232006-07-05T07:08:00.000-06:002006-07-05T07:08:00.000-06:00I tend to agree with Thayne and I'm not sure that ...I tend to agree with Thayne and I'm not sure that you fully addressed his concerns. True, you didn't say that Senators should "simply" reflect the wishes (or presumed wishes in a state of ideal information spread), but you do argue that "they are duty-bound to execute the wishes of those who hire him" except in the most morally egregious circumstances (or resign if they cannot). I think that this is wrong. I think that executing the wishes of the voters is *one* of the things which they are supposed to do - but it's not the *only* thing they are supposed to do and the wishes of the voters is not the only or always the most important thing to take into account when voting on legislation.<BR/><BR/>These elected representatives were intended to in fact be an anti-democratic buffer between "mob" passions and legislation. Moreover, Senators were supposed to be an even *more* anti-democratic buffer. Don't forget, they were not originally elected. Their 6-year terms, combined with only 1/3 being elected every 2 years, creates a large campaign buffer between them and unpopular votes. This is deliberate: for any given vote, up to a third of them are long enough from re-election that they surely not care if it's unpopular, and another third can probably not care. This creates enough votes to block legislation that is popular, but a bad idea. The Senate is suppose to be a slower, more deliberative body where minorities can slow down and block legislation, making it more difficult for popular measures which are a bad idea to get through too quickly or easily. It's not coincidence that the Flag Burning amendment keeps passing the House but not the Senate.<BR/><BR/>In addition, the Senate was created specifically to have a legislative body that is derived from the "people," but which is expected to be responsible to the nation as a whole. Senators are supposed to vote not simply on the basis of what voters back home wish or would wish, but on the basis of what they think is best for their states and for the nation. Representatives are elected in small districts; Senators by the entire state. Senators, not Representatives, are responsible for approving Supreme Court justices, federal judges, ambassadors, treaties, cabinet members, etc. The House votes to impeach, but the trial is conducted by the Senate. The House is supposed to be more immediately and directly responsible to the wishes of the people; the Senate is supposed to be more removed from them and craft legislation which take much more into account than those immediate wishes.<BR/><BR/>For all these reasons and more, I think that when we're discussing the Senate it's wrong to only say that Senators are duty-bound to "execute the wishes of those who hire him." A Senator is *also* duty-bound to take far more into consideration than just the wishes of voters - they should also exercise their own moral and political judgment in order to determine what they think is best for the country. Sometimes, that may be at odds with the "wishes of the voters."<BR/><BR/>One more thing should be added here: early in America, politicians would probably have been horrified at the idea that they should carefully monitor what the voters want on every issue or even on the biggest issues. I remember reading that George Washington's attitude was that voters should elect the man they believed had the best character and then trust him to do the best job in crafting and voting on legislation. They should not inquire on a politician's specific positions and politicians shouldn't go around making promises about specific issues. It was unseemly and base. In effect, the early politicians and voters engaged in virtue-based elections rather than consequentialist elections (it was also aristocratic and arrogant, of course).<BR/><BR/>Whatever you might think about this in the field of ethics, I think that it has a lot to recommend it in the field of politics. After all, when we focus too much on electing people on the basis of how they vote now on the issues which matter most to us, we ignore the impact their overall character will have on their votes on issues we haven't considered yet. Remember, people voting for Senators, Representatives, and President in 2000 couldn't imagine that those people would be deciding on whether to invade Afghanistan and Iraq in a couple of years. We can't know what our representatives will have to deal with in even 1 year, much less 3 or 4 years from now. It might be a good idea to take into account their character and "virtues" a bit more and not just their professed stands on narrow issues. Perhaps we should vote for someone who has the "wrong" position on a couple of issues if we think they have a much more reasoned, careful, and ethical approach to political issues overall.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1152103024458488442006-07-05T06:37:00.000-06:002006-07-05T06:37:00.000-06:00ThayneYou are reading something into what I write ...Thayne<BR/><BR/>You are reading something into what I write that is not there -- constructing a straw man.<BR/><BR/>Yes, my job as Senator would be to attend hearings and acquire expert information that I would use in my vote.<BR/><BR/>It is a not a matter of "simply" voting as they would vote -- and I never said it was. It is a matter of voting as they would vote if they had the information that I had.<BR/><BR/>So, if we are talking about laws to reduce carbon emissions in order to delay the effects of global warming, I would say to the people back home, "My vote reflects what I think you would have done if you had learned the things about global warming that I learned."<BR/><BR/>Yet, in doing this, I am still an agent of the people. It is like hiring an engineer to design a house. The engineer has to use sound engineering practices. He cannot go to the person wanting the house and say, "What type of concrete should we use in the foundation, and what gauge wiring should we use?" Those who hire an architect expect him to use his expert knowledge. Yet, the architect cannot simply design whatever house he likes -- he has to design a house that suits those who hire him.<BR/><BR/>To those who protested my actions on the grounds that they think that global warming is not real, I would answer that I looked at the evidence in detail -- more closely than they did -- and they are mistaken.<BR/><BR/>However, what kind of 'mistake' would they be making in their call for an amendment to ban flag burning? What type of expert testimony is lacking? How can I claim that my vote was grounded on some fact that my expert staff dug up that the would have caused the people back home to change their mind if they knew this fact?<BR/><BR/>Now, I believe in moral facts. I believe that one of those moral facts is that a ban on flag burning is wrong. I also consider myself something of an expert in the area of moral facts. Those who support a flag-burning amendment display a certain ignorance of the moral facts. So, I <I>can</I> say that there are facts that the people back home are getting wrong.<BR/><BR/>Yet, I also hold that among those moral facts is the fact that arrogance is a vice. It is arrogant to pretend to too much certainty. So, humility suggests saying, "Maybe I, who am in the minority on this issue, am the one who does not have the right answer."<BR/><BR/>Which is part of the reason why I argue that the Two Percent Company and others should not focus their attention on the Senator, but focus it instead on the people. Get the people to realize that it is wrong to support a flag burning amendment, then I, as a Senator, would be pleased to cast my vote that way as well.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1152081521859841232006-07-05T00:38:00.000-06:002006-07-05T00:38:00.000-06:00If I were a legislator, I would not consider mysel...If I were a legislator, I would not consider myself, or present myself, as an agent of those who elected me. If my job is only to reflect their wishes, then legislators can come up with bills then allow the people to vote on them. <BR/><BR/>But, I don't think it is the duty of legislators to simply vote the way the majority of voters they represent would vote. Is such a duty outlined in the Constitution? (I'm really asking, I don't know, but I doubt it).<BR/><BR/>As a candidate, I'd explain my philosophy and provide my views on topical issues as well as issues that I simply find important. You can vote for me if you like what I present. After I'm a candidate, you can vote for my re-election if you: like my voting record, my stands on issues, other aspects of the work I've done, think I'm intelligent, competent, effective, and so on. But don't expect me to simply vote the way I'm instructed by my constituents. I'm going to use my judgement and vote the way I think will be effective, morally right, and right for the country and those I represent. If the voters don't agree with me, vote me out.<BR/><BR/>As a legislator, I'd basically consider myself an expert on policy issues. It's my job to know the issues, hire a staff to research issues, etc. Voters are mostly lay people on policy issues. I'm sure not going to rubber stamp the majority view of the voters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com