tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post113505128316927387..comments2023-10-24T04:29:23.693-06:00Comments on Atheist Ethicist: A Perspective on the PledgeAlonzo Fyfehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-39284030600364729822010-03-30T16:31:30.323-06:002010-03-30T16:31:30.323-06:00The analogy you use and facts of motivation are in...The analogy you use and facts of motivation are incorrect, thus the point of your story is logically wrong.<br /><br />Thinkaboutit (former Restore the Pledge forum member)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-62299665650223930242008-05-21T17:28:00.000-06:002008-05-21T17:28:00.000-06:00If you are running for president of the United Sta...If you are running for president of the United States, you would be branded un-American and never win. An atheist is betraying his/her ideals and philosophy if they say this is a nation under a god. This section of the pledge, then, is designed to prevent nontheists from taking office.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-35247937312675668902008-03-24T13:52:00.000-06:002008-03-24T13:52:00.000-06:00This really puts the whole thing in perspective. ...This really puts the whole thing in perspective. Thank you, that was very well thought out.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16038852217537456403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-67624266088125698592008-03-24T11:31:00.000-06:002008-03-24T11:31:00.000-06:00Note: The issue of the possibility of change is on...Note: The issue of the possibility of change is one of the issues raised in the book version.<BR/><BR/>Namely, if some sort of gene therepy made it possible for people to change their race, would it then be <I>permissible</I> to have a pledge of allegiance to one white nation?<BR/><BR/>Or is it, as I hold, that the possibility of change is irrelevant.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-31889113511384457792008-03-24T11:19:00.000-06:002008-03-24T11:19:00.000-06:00Excellent piece. Alonzo. I will use this example m...Excellent piece. Alonzo. I will use this example myself in future discussions of the pledge issue.<BR/><BR/>John, I could no more choose to change from being an atheist than I could change my racial identity. I didn't choose to become an atheist, it was the result of information and research. At this point, asking me to "choose" religion would be like asking me to choose to believe the earth is flat or gravity doesn't exist. I could pretend, I suppose, but I know it ain't so.Reason's Whorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09386477323714963087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-6946769750703821322007-02-01T05:05:00.000-07:002007-02-01T05:05:00.000-07:00John
The counter-argument would work if one held ...<b>John</b><br /><br />The counter-argument would work if one held that the Pledge of Allegiance was intentionally designed to be denigrating towards atheists. Then, one can say that denigrating remarks are warranted because atheism is chosen and it is wrong to choose such a thing.<br /><br />However, the Pledge is marketed as something that is not derogatory towards atheists, which this story proves to be false.<br /><br />The "Ameryca" misspelling was deliberate. The other was not, and will be corrected. Thank you.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-60596535900658323502007-02-01T01:57:00.000-07:002007-02-01T01:57:00.000-07:00One counterargument I might expect to be used to s...One counterargument I might expect to be used to such an analogy is that an atheist or Christian can always choose to change, but you're born black or white (etc.), and pretty much stuck with it. That seems to make a difference to some people, although I've never really understood why; for instance, I expect that it's a lot of the reason why gay-hating fundamenatlists want to insist that homosexuality is a choice, while GLBT groups seem to support the idea that it's genetic. I take the opinion that it doesn't really matter either way, since I'd support the same freedoms for them either way.<br /><br />Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand, I suspect some would argue that it's all different and a false analogy because of that. Oh, and a little copyediting help: "che<b>e</b>p whore", and "Amer<b>y</b>ca", if that wasn't on purpose to set up an alternate reality version of America.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16862162157713428951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1138581193535480302006-01-29T17:33:00.000-07:002006-01-29T17:33:00.000-07:00A stunning piece.You may recognize my name as a no...A stunning piece.<BR/><BR/>You may recognize my name as a notorious online gadfly. I have long used such "word substitution" analogies to try to expose the unconscious bigotry that keeps atheists excluded and marginalized in American society. But I have no reservation in admitting that this piece of yours is more powerful, direct and profound than anything I have written about the subject. It was an emotional read, and I thank you for it. I am going to forward this to everyone I know (with proper attribution and a link back here), and hope it develops a life of its own as an Internet "meme".<BR/><BR/>Bravo, and THANK YOU.<BR/><BR/>- galiel<BR/><BR/>(For some reason my blogger identity of galiel isn't registering so I am posting as "anonymous")Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1138468000780303992006-01-28T10:06:00.000-07:002006-01-28T10:06:00.000-07:00CalladusI am honored. And, thank you. I am, admitt...<B>Calladus</B><BR/><BR/>I am honored. And, thank you. I am, admittedly, curious as to how this story is received by people who would not normally visit a site like this. I would like to know if anybody has been able to use it to actually get others (classmates) to sit during the pledge, when they otherwise would have stood -- like Jenny in the story.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1138321586019174772006-01-26T17:26:00.000-07:002006-01-26T17:26:00.000-07:00Oh my! I'm making your essay required reading for...Oh my! I'm making your essay required reading for any of my friends who wonder why I'm upset with the pledge.<BR/><BR/>Very well done sir.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1137987560404058792006-01-22T20:39:00.000-07:002006-01-22T20:39:00.000-07:00Came here via the most recent COTG, and I have to ...Came here via the most recent COTG, and I have to say this is absolutely fantastic. Analogy is a useful tool for demonstrating things to people who might not recognize a particular injustice but who would most likely recognize injustice in a larger sense (usually if they were placed in the minority position), or in this case to people who would recognize other specific injustices and could then be made to see the similarities between cases. It's disturbing that people so frequently need such things spelled out for them, that they can't recognize the structures and rhetoric of injustice unless it's turned against them. American history in particular seems to be largely reducible to an endless cycle of injustice, enlightenment, and the subsequent finding of a new prejudice to pursue--if anything, this makes the tireless work of fighting irrational bias all the more noble. "Under God" isn't in and of itself the most significant or egregious instance of our culture's anti-atheist bias, but it's certainly symptomatic, and the underlying beliefs are no less silly than those of homophobia or racism.<BR/><BR/>Bravo.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1137970198649326792006-01-22T15:49:00.000-07:002006-01-22T15:49:00.000-07:00I'd just like to say that this was a striking piec...I'd just like to say that this was a striking piece of writing. It took a second for the penny to drop, and it did so rather forcefully.The Reverend Schmitt., FCD.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15562755198947639152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1136161777124102802006-01-01T17:29:00.000-07:002006-01-01T17:29:00.000-07:00Buckster, rnrstar: I am glad that you liked it. It...<B>Buckster, rnrstar</B>: I am glad that you liked it. It has turned out that this blog entry was my greatest hit of December, 2005.<BR/><BR/>If you think that it might actually have the power to persuade people to change their minds, I again would be pleased if you would put this article to use.<BR/><BR/>I think that is important to have good arguments out there the next time Newdow's case makes news.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1136139313488836992006-01-01T11:15:00.000-07:002006-01-01T11:15:00.000-07:00I have said that this issue is really a civil righ...I have said that this issue is really a civil rights issue but the response from "under God" suporters is that no one has been lynched or imprisoned over it.<BR/><BR/>Your article helps to disprove this falacy and provides yet another example of why having "under God" in the pledge is wrong.rnrstarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12361479134149892024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1135468011221701082005-12-24T16:46:00.000-07:002005-12-24T16:46:00.000-07:00This is a tremendously powerful take on the issue....This is a tremendously powerful take on the issue. I love the way you've addressed this. Well done!Bucksterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06261640901298736753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1135443613484765972005-12-24T10:00:00.000-07:002005-12-24T10:00:00.000-07:00Wow! 100 essays, and I finally produced one that h...Wow! 100 essays, and I finally produced one that had an impact on somebody's thinking!<BR/><BR/>Actually, if this helped you see the issue in a new light, I would like to suggest that you show it to others who used to think as you did. Newdow will be making news again in the future. I think it would be nice to have something out there that explains his position against those who will certainly be condemning him -- like the U.S. Senate.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1135363619597434282005-12-23T11:46:00.000-07:002005-12-23T11:46:00.000-07:00I missed this one. Nicely done.When the controvers...I missed this one. Nicely done.<BR/><BR/>When the controversy began I was what is commonly called a 'lapsed Catholic.' I still considered myself a Christian, though I had stopped going to church. I thought Michael Newdow was a pompous ass for bringing up that case. I also thought that the pledge had always had "under God" in it. <BR/><BR/>I still think that very localized religious displays are permissible, so long as they are meant to be inclusive. So long as everyone's faith - or even just the two dominant ones in the area - get a turn at their respective holidays, I don't mind. The simple fact that there are no atheist holy days (by definition!) shouldn't stop anyone from having fun. Indeed, I have no problem celebrating Christmas (though undoubtedly different reasons now). <BR/><BR/>Your post on this subject was startlingly enlightening. I had before lumped the pledge in with those local displays of religion. The fact that several religions all name their god "God" and the fact that recitation of the pledge is not compulsory was enough to satisfy the establishment issues for me. But no more. Well done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com