tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post113280335299335377..comments2023-10-24T04:29:23.693-06:00Comments on Atheist Ethicist: Giving Thanks where Thanks are DueAlonzo Fyfehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1133008666123650052005-11-26T05:37:00.000-07:002005-11-26T05:37:00.000-07:00dee jay:"Alonzo" is fine.(1) Christianity does not...dee jay:<BR/><BR/>"Alonzo" is fine.<BR/><BR/>(1) Christianity does not "rule out" support for each other. However, it does misdirect some of that support. If you take a airplane flight and arrive safely at your destination, this is <B>entirely</B> due to the efforts of ground and cockpit crews. They deserve all of the credit.<BR/><BR/>(2) I would be worried about anybody who agrees with everything I write. I have said at every opportunity, "I guarantee that my writings contain at least one mistake. I am, after all, human. I do not know where that mistake is. Maybe you will find it."<BR/><BR/>(3a) Morality is not directly about likes or dislikes. (That is to say, "I want you to do x; therefore, you have an obligation to do X" is a view that I argue strongly against.)<BR/><BR/>(3b) Morality is not strictly about what we ought or ought not to do, because we lack the capacity to do anything that violates the laws of nature.<BR/><BR/>(3c) Morality is about what we ought or ought not to like. Because if I like living in a place where me and my neighbors are safe (i.e., our houses will not burn down, and nobody will harm our children), then what I will do is act so as to make this a safe neighborhood.<BR/><BR/>(4) You do not seem to be able to provide any answer to the man who says, "To hell with your religion. I have my own that I'll live by."<BR/><BR/>(5) You cannot "reason" a person into following any moral system. Morality is about likes and dislikes, and likes and dislikes are not subject to reason. Morality is about using praise, condemnation, reward, and punishment to promote good desires (those that help others) and inhibit bad desires (those that harm others). The natural desire for help and to avoid harm provides the motivation for promoting helpful desires and inhibiting harmful desires. The role of reason is to tell us which are which.<BR/><BR/>(6) The statements that I suspect that you are reading as "I don't want to" or "I don't like that" are being misread. You do not provide any examples, so I cannot say. Yet, a fundamentally moral statement does not take the form "I like that" but "It is reasonable and wise for us to promote an overall desire for that." In some cases, I take it as intuitively obvious that I am talking about a good desire in this sense, or inhibiting what is in fact a bad desire in this sense.<BR/><BR/>(7) I do not need to believe in God to want to hurt children. But the children have a reason to be opposed. As do those who love the children, and those who love those who love the children. Morality is not about what I like and do not like. It is about what all of us <B>should</B> like or do not like. If nobody liked to harm children, everybody would be happy. So, morality says, "Use praise, condemnation, reward, and punishment as your tools to make it the case that as few people as possible want to harm children."<BR/><BR/>There is no way that everybody can be happy if even one person wants to harm children. The only way that everybody can be happy is if nobody wants to harm children. So, morality says to aim for a state where nobody wants to harm children.<BR/><BR/>(8) An argument about what it would take for me to believe in God would be a huge digression. I also do not see it as an important question. We can still discuss morality as "What God would have wanted us to do if He did exist," and simply not worry about whether He exists or not.<BR/><BR/>There are obviously states of affairs that make it possible for me to believe in certain things -- even things I cannot see. I believe in (the existence of) atoms, quarks, the big bang, evolution, black holes, positrons, dinosaurs, and moral truth, even though I cannot directly see any of these things. I do not believe in unicorns, the easter bunny, santa clause, astral projection, extrasensory perception, bigfoot, faith healing, angels, demons, or any of the 10,000 different gods that different people are telling me must exist. The statement that there is no state that could cause me to believe in the existence of something contradicts the fact that there are a huge number of things that I believe in the existence of. How did that happen?Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1132839456912330992005-11-24T06:37:00.000-07:002005-11-24T06:37:00.000-07:00Dee JayOne more follow-up, which may help you unde...Dee Jay<BR/><BR/>One more follow-up, which may help you understand my position.<BR/><BR/>As an atheist, I recognize that the only help that I am going to get is going to come from my neighbor, not by God.<BR/><BR/>If I am going to fly in an airplane, I need the mechanics to care that the plane is in good shape to fly, a pilot that is responsible and sober and who has sufficient training and presence of mind to handle a catastrophe.<BR/><BR/>If there is an earthquake or a hurricane, God is not going to rescue me. I must either move out of harms way or make sure that my countrymen are both competent and willing to come and get me.<BR/><BR/>Just as I depend on them, they depend on me.<BR/><BR/>We need each other. Each other is all we have. People who do not recognize the value of this mutual support network are a threat to us all.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1132838180003870352005-11-24T06:16:00.000-07:002005-11-24T06:16:00.000-07:00As for the question, "if we are products of these ...As for the question, "if we are products of these blind forces of nature, then why ought we have any concern about who lives or dies."<BR/><BR/>You are write, I have written a lot about this, because it is a central question in ethics. It would be difficult for me to provide an answer within the confines of a reasonable comment box.<BR/><BR/>A short answer is:<BR/><BR/>I do not need to believe in God to be concerned about what should happen to me if my house should catch fire, and to take steps to reduce the risk of fire.<BR/><BR/>Similarly, I do not need to believe in God to know the dangers of living in a society of vicious and selfish people, and to take pains to ensure that the society I do live in is one of freedom, justice, and mutual concern for the welfare of each individual.<BR/><BR/>Which is why I write this blog -- to help create a society I live in is one where people recognize the value of freedom, justice, and mutual concern, and what these things entail.<BR/><BR/>Additional reading can be found at blog entries:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2005/10/ethics-without-god.html" REL="nofollow">Ethics Without God I</A><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2005/10/ethics-without-god-ii.html" REL="nofollow">Ethics Without God II</A><BR/><BR/><A HREF="article_du.shtml" REL="nofollow">Desire Utilitarianism</A><BR/><BR/>And, if you want to tackle the really long version:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="desire_utilitarianism.shtml" REL="nofollow">Desire Utilitarianism: An Atheist’s Quest for Moral Truth</A>Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1132837432312742242005-11-24T06:03:00.000-07:002005-11-24T06:03:00.000-07:00Dee JayOn your first issue, let me answer like thi...Dee Jay<BR/><BR/>On your first issue, let me answer like this:<BR/><BR/>If it were raining, I would draw the conclusion that it was cloudy. This does not imply that if it is not raining, then I would draw the conclusion that it is not cloudly.<BR/><BR/>Since polio (and other horrible things) exist, I draw the conclusion that there is no perfectly benevolent all-powerful God. This does not imply that the absence of polio would support the conclusion that there is a God.<BR/><BR/>The existence of a God, like the existence of clear skies, would require additional evidence. But, when it is raining, I do not need to look for evidence that the sky is perfectly clear. The existence of polio says that I do not need to look for evidence of an all-powerful, perfectly benevolent God.Alonzo Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.com